074 | Kanna: Supporting Depression + Anxiety with This Legal, Safe & Researched Plant Medicine
“A classic psychedelic is characterized by visuals. Wherein empathogens are something very different, they don’t typically promote visuals. What they do tend to promote are feelings of connection, empathy, and a deepened emotional awareness. ”
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Could this succulent from South Africa be a daily ally for managing anxiety and depression? Research says yes. Some of the active alkaloids found in Kanna have been well researched and are now prescribed for treating such mental health conditions. Not only is Kanna well researched, it is also legal and has very low risk profile.
Kanna is an empathogen, meaning it increases feelings of connection and empathy towards oneself and others. Rather than being a deep and intense psychedelic experience, Kanna is more often used as a gentle daily support. While it has been used ceremonially in high doses within indigenous cultures, Kanna also offers support as a supplement (microdose) rather than a high dose experience.
Delivering all this fascinating information to us is Ryan Latreille, founder of TWO Kanna companies. He tell us everything we need to know about this plant, in addition to how it has a use case in recreational settings, replacing other more toxic substances. We also cover indigenous use, contraindications, empathogens vs psychedelics, and so much more!
I am SO excited about Kanna, and I know you will be too after listening to this episode. Don't forget to share it with a friend who might find this information valuable!
Topics Covered:
Ryan’s story and how he got involved with Kanna
What is kanna?
Kanna as a therapeutic for depression and anxiety
Kanna as a recreational experience
How the Khoi and San people have traditionally worked with Kanna
How Kanna Extract Co is working with traditional communities in South Africa
What is an empathogen and why they’re so healing
Active alkaloids in Kanna & how they impact you
Kanna dosing guidelines
Kanna for microdosing or a daily supplement
Contraindications & risk factors with Kanna
The neuroscience behind Kanna
Kanna vs MDMA
Kanna extract vs tinctures vs capsules
Kanna Extract Co
The worlds best Kanna extracts. Responsibly sourced, high alkaloid potency,
and lab verified quality.
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“There are very few substances on the planet that are this potent.”
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Things Mentioned in This Episode
Show Links:
“You can take kanna daily. It is not addictive. It does not produce a tolerance. In fact, most people find that the more that they take kanna, the less that they need it. ”
Where to Find Ryan Latrielle:
About Ryan:
Ryan Latreille is the founder of Kanna Extract Co., Hearthstone Collective, and Flow Labs. With over a decade of expertise in mushrooms and plant medicines, he’s dedicated to offering solutions that support mental and emotional well-being. From providing premium Kanna extracts to designing innovative nutraceutical products, Ryan is helping shape the psychedelic and wellness industries with ethically sourced, high-quality botanicals.
Looking for a professional coach to support you on your psychedelic path?
Look no further! Along with being the host of the Modern Psychedelics Podcast, Lana is a 3x certified professional coach who works with people on the psychedelic path.
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Lana Pribic: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Get ready to learn a lot during today's episode. I'm here with Ryan Latreille and he's going to talk to us all about Kanna. Welcome to the show, Ryan.
Ryan Latreille: Thank you. Happy to be here.
Lana Pribic: Do you wanna just start by giving an introduction to the audience of who you are?
Ryan Latreille: Sure. So my name is Ryan. I live in Southern California and I am the founder of the Hearthstone Collective and kanna Extract Company. We are setting out to provide the best possible kanna extracts. So I'm really excited about this plant from South Africa and really excited to share with your community and answer your questions.
Lana Pribic: Yes, me too. And before we get into that, just so that we have an understanding of just who you are and your story can you tell us a little bit about how you started working with kanna and just the difference that's made in your life?
Ryan Latreille: Sure. I was introduced to the plant. [00:01:00] Over 11 years ago now I was invited to a plant medicine ceremony where they were giving out what I learned was a combination like a formulation with, that combined a kanna extract with MDMA. And so this was like MDMA facilitated group therapy sessions.
And. It was actually the first time not only that I was trying kanna, but the very first time I'd ever had a psychedelic experience. And the first time I ever experienced what we call in the medicine space a heart open. And this was a profound, incredibly profound, impactful experience. I didn't know feeling something like that was possible, and I knew that these kinds of substances that I would later learn are called empathogens are really important, that they can really do a [00:02:00] lot of good in the world and really help people connect with themselves and others in a much deeper way.
So I continued to work with the plant only in that context for many years. And then it, within the last five years with microdosing becoming more and more popular, and that's primarily with mushrooms that people are used to exploring microdosing. I started looking at kanna more closely because it is a plant medicine.
And kanna really checked all the boxes. And the more that I learned about it, the more I realized that this plant is very special and it really deserves its own place in our pharmacopoeia of psychedelic or plant medicine compounds. And people that are doing this kind of work I think would be really interested in the potential of this plant.
So as I mentioned I founded a company called Hearthstone Collective, [00:03:00] and these are low therapeutic doses of kanna that are meant to be taken daily. But this year I launched kanna Extract Company, which are, which offers very strong extracts of kanna, and so this is getting more into the realm of.
Like recreational or ceremonial doses of kanna, depending on how you use it.
Lana Pribic: I'm curious when you first started engaging with kanna and you experienced this empathogenic heart opening effect. What did that do for you? Like, where were you in your life?
That made that so impactful for you to set you off on this journey of creating two kanna companies.
Ryan Latreille: I was living in Los Angeles and I was working for a company called Creation Juicery. They offered organic juices. It was really my first real job out of college. And, I wasn't really doing much. I would say it was more of like a mountain biking bump and juice bump than anything else.
Just really [00:04:00] coasting. And... Discovering psychedelics was really the first time that I felt or made contact with real purpose. I never had anything just ignite me like, like that. And I knew whatever I was going to be doing, it was going to be with these kinds of compounds that give you access to these states of consciousness.
And yeah I, as I mentioned I really only worked with the plant in the ceremonial setting. I was fortunate enough to meet a lot of underground facilitators that were doing, facilitated guided work with people. And the creation of Hearthstone was really to support people that were doing that kind of work to give them a product or a tool that could help support people in their pre and post when it came to doing journey work.
So something that would support their integration or give [00:05:00] facilitators a touch point with their clients leading up to their first journey or their next journey depending on how they worked with them., I wanted to create a legal microdosing product where people could explore this concept of working with plant medicines or working with microdosing with something that was like a really safe, gentle entry point.
Lana Pribic: Let's get into what is kanna and where is it from? Can you tell us a little bit more about this beautiful little plant?
Ryan Latreille: Kanna is a succulent that is found in the deserts of South Africa. It grows in a region called the Karoo. It's also called kannaland, so this is a desert region that looks Very similar to parts of the American Southwest. The plant is a central part of the culture for at least two indigenous communities within South Africa.
Namely the Khoi and the San, and [00:06:00] these two cultures are referred to collectively in South Africa as the Khoi San or sometimes the Kai Korana. But they are two very distinct cultures and both are ancient. They have done DNA testing on some San communities and it is. Some of the oldest DNA on the planet.
So these are ancient people with ancient cultures and kanna is very central to both parts both cultures in their own way. And I think that speaks volumes to the importance of this plant.
It is a true sacred plant. It's been used in ceremony. In South Africa for thousands of years it is technically psychoactive. It does have measurable effects when you take it on the central nervous system, though it's not a classic psychedelic per se, like tryptamines, like psilocybin or LSD. [00:07:00] It falls into this category of medicines called empathogens which are heart openers.
So most people think of empathogens. Of things like MDMA or SAS or 2C B but what's really unique about kanna is that it's entirely plant derived. These alkaloids exist naturally within the plant and they have these effects just by taking them without really doing anything else to it. It's legal and it can be microdosed in low doses with significant efficacy.
And there is a lot of research out there. A lot of it is funded by companies that have kanna extracts, but it is really promising what it shows.
Lana Pribic: . And why might someone want to work with kanna?
Ryan Latreille: What we have learned, the pharmacology of the plant is quite complex. That would be its own question to go into. But just on a surface level, the There's really two main uses of kanna. In the therapeutic realm, [00:08:00] kanna appears to be able to support different aspects of mental health.
And so primarily people are looking at depression and anxiety when they're working with a low daily dose of kanna. There are also pro cognitive benefits of kanna, and this gets into some of its pharmacology, but helping with focus and concentration. But I also think that there's other applications for other aspects of mental health.
As well if it's used consistently and responsibly. So that's the therapeutic side of kanna, which is really exciting because there people are more and more looking for therapeutic options that don't have the side effects that come with a lot of the synthetic options that are out there.
And then there's the like recreational aspect of it. Which is, I think, really exciting as well. With the right dose of kanna and the right extract of kanna, it does [00:09:00] have felt euphoric and empathogenic effects. So you feel... You feel great when you take it, you feel a lot happier, a lot lighter feel more connected.
And especially if it's facilitated in the right kind of setting and whether that's a ceremony or a more like rave like experience, it actually activates to be quite strong and. It also is a much healthier, safer alternative to things like alcohol or other substances that people look to in, social recreational settings.
So yeah, those are the two primary ways of how kanna is used and why people like it.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, and you mentioned the Khoi and the San cultures and their roots to Kanna. How have they been working with Kanna throughout the years?
Ryan Latreille: Yeah, so looking at the San first. The San is a hunter gatherer culture. And [00:10:00] what is really amazing is that there are a lot of San communities that are still intact with their hunter gatherer lifestyle. And there, there aren't very many communities like that left.
One of the central figures in the San cosmology is the Eland Antelope. It's an incredibly important figure in this shamanic tradition. And the name that they have, the name of the antelope is kanna, and they've given that same name to this plant. And as you look at the role that this antelope plays in their shamanic practices, it really starts to give you an idea of how sensual and how spiritually potent this plant is.
From a plant medicine context the Koi are very just as ancient, possibly more ancient. We don't actually know where they originated from because they are a nomadic culture that, that is a herding culture. So [00:11:00] they their lifestyle revolved around herding cattle and sheep and these.
family units that manage these herds. And so the Koi is made up of many different clans across the entire country. The Koi also had a very very close relationship with the plant. It was weaved throughout all aspects of life, taken both. In ceremony, as well as more socially and in, in lower doses essentially daily, daily use daily micro doses of kanna and the way that they prepared it.
And what's really interesting about the Koi is that before these extracts existed, like the ones that I'm offering, these really strong commercial extracts. There was a lot of question marks around, and people still have question marks, does Kanna actually do anything? A lot of people try Kanna, they don't feel anything, and a lot of that comes down to, the alkoloid content of the plant.
[00:12:00] And it was where a particular clan that I work with and support, it was where they lived. That this high alkaloid strain of Scoletium tortuosa was found and then brought into cultivation and is basically what all the commercial kanna that you find at most of it, the high alkaloid kanna comes from their the plants that were found in where they lived.
Lana Pribic: , and you were just visiting over in South Africa with the Khoi?
Ryan Latreille: Yeah so this particular clan is the late Richard Cotella. So Chief Cotella was a. A really important figure within the entire Kaikourana community, but especially for the Koi that have really gone through a very difficult time in, in South Africa. Most of them live in an extremely low level of poverty.[00:13:00]
And the way that the Koi are treated there is not. And to the point where many are ashamed to even be associated with that word Khoi, or at least were. And Chief Kotella who was a brilliant man, he did a lot to help remind the different Khoi clans. How important their culture is and what their relationship is to South Africa and did a lot to, to re instill their sense of identity.
And so I met with Chief Kutela's brother, Sam, who's now the. the clan leader. 3 percent of all the kanna that I purchased from South Africa is currently supporting them specifically. And we support different projects that support the preservation and of Koi traditional koi culture.
And the intention [00:14:00] as my new company grows is to support the broader koi community, the San community, and the entire Kai.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, that's amazing that you had an opportunity to just go on the ground there and really connect with the keepers of the medicine and the culture.
Ryan Latreille: It was really cool. So the different Khoi clans they all have different songs and dances that they teach to their children. And then the girls from the different clans will all gather together for almost like a festival where they'll all compete and share their songs and dances with each other.
And it's a way of preserving the culture and their traditions as well. And so what we supported on this last visit was. I mentioned the level of poverty that a lot of them live in. And so they're just showing up with whatever clothes that they wear for this festival. And so we bought like traditional [00:15:00] animal skins for them to actually cut and sew and make their traditional clothing that they would wear for these kinds of ceremonies for all the girls that are coming together for this.
That's just an example of the kinds of projects that we're trying to support.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And you did have a chance to, connect with them, chat with them, discuss certain things just from what you gathered. What is their impression of sharing kanna with the West and it being available here and, the way that we engage with it here.
Ryan Latreille: Sadly, not, at least this is what my experience of the few that I got to meet with. Sadly, a lot of them don't remember the, the old ways. A lot was done to suppress. Their traditional knowledge, not unlike what I'm an American, what we did in the United States to, to different Native American tribes.
So a lot was done to erase their their [00:16:00] traditional knowledge, but they are really grateful. They are really just grateful and excited. And they want a way to be able to participate. It not only the local economy there, but also the broader economy in South Africa and even further than that.
And so , I asked Sam Cotella, what do you think? Are some of the best ways that we can help support or help support or what, what do you guys need? And he said that he felt that helping them start small businesses within their, their communities would go a really long way to improve their quality of life there.
Lana Pribic: You mentioned that a lot of the old ways and ancient wisdom has been suppressed. So what is their relationship with kanna like today? Okay.
Ryan Latreille: Very, at least when I saw very few use it. Very few really have access to it. And yeah, sadly that's, that is [00:17:00] the state of the relationship with Kanna right now. .
They don't use it regularly they don't, again, so when I speak about kanna being used in a ceremonial context this really points more to historical data about their cultures not present day they know of it, but it is not a central part of their lifestyle
They, as I said they're really excited that it's a source of support and income for them. , within South Africa, every grower of kanna is supposed to have some kind of benefit sharing agreement, though my impression was it's very loosely enforced if at all. It seems like there's a lot of Koi that don't know about kanna.
You could tell this particular clan, they. They know about it. They, they knew about these hyaluronic plants that existed within where they lived, though it doesn't seem like it was a, like I said, just a regular part of their lifestyle.[00:18:00] I guess to just paint a more accurate picture of what life is like.
Is like in South Africa if you've ever seen the, it's really, it's pretty sad if you've ever seen the movie district nine and the way that they show these shantytowns, these people living in these structures that are just made up. Plywood, whatever scrap plywood and scrap metal you can find.
That's what a lot of people are living in. A lot of Koi are living in that kind of environment. And so there's really, it's a very hard lifestyle. And just for them to be able and go and do the kinds of activities, like I described with this, the singing and dancing is a pretty big change of pace from what day to day life is like for any kind of, there's a lot of different indigenous communities within South Africa, and it is a pretty brutal existence.
If you look at their statistics of, It's not just the level of violent crimes in South Africa, it's, it tops the charts for most [00:19:00] of them.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. I'm very aware of that. My, childhood, a best friend is South African and they had to leave when she was very young. So yeah it's it's important to hear about like the roots of where these medicines are coming from and, thanks for providing. Providing us with a little bit of backdrop so that we can all understand a little more um, how is kind of extract company working with the communities in South Africa.
Ryan Latreille: As I said we go above what is legally required in South Africa, which is really, it puts the responsibility on the growers of kanna itself. 3 percent of all of our kanna purchases. are going to support the preservation of traditional, and I say this including both the San, but Khoi San traditions and culture.
And even that process, it may sound [00:20:00] vague as I say it that way, but the process is really delicate. And I'm still just learning about what there's, the social architecture looks like within these communities. You can't just start giving people money because that's a really quick way of just destroying the fabric of their communities.
And so we try to be really selective in the way that we do allocate that 3 percent in so that these projects actually are helping one, preserve the traditional. And it's helping build community rather than creating a situation where there's haves and have nots. Yeah,
Lana Pribic: Okay. . Let's get a little bit into the medicine and what it would look like to work with it. So you mentioned that it's an empathogen, right? It's not a classic psychedelic. It's an empathogen. So it's going to create these feelings of open heartedness, connection to oneself, to other people.
Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Ryan Latreille: [00:21:00] yeah. So when I say in empathogen and distinguish that from , a classic psychedelic or an entheogen. Tryptamine alkaloids, things like psilocybin LSD, ayahuasca, like these are entheogens. And the typical experience, or many experiences are characterized by visuals. That's a big aspect of it for most people.
Having some kind of like spiritual experience. Which is where that word entheogen comes from, or a mystical experience is another way of describing that. Wherein empathogens are something very different. A lot of them are just a different alkaloid structure altogether. And they don't typically promote visuals.
That's not typical for empathogens. What they do tend to promote are feelings of connection, empathy, which is where that word empathogen comes from [00:22:00] and a deepened emotional awareness. And I think this is what is so profound about empathogens is that when you take them, there's something that happens where you seem to be able to better understand your own emotions.
And the emotions of other people, and that can have really big impact on not only just your relationship with other people, but your relationship with yourself. And it's why things like MDMA therapy, at least why I think it's been so effective for treating trauma and people with PTSD.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Absolutely. It's such a healing experience to open up to the fullness and intensity of your own experience and someone else's experience. That is like a portal for healing and for a deeper understanding and for gaining new insights.
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. I personally feel. [00:23:00] That so much important work can be done in those states and that, especially the level of connection that you can experience when working within pathogens is almost more, at least my personal experiences has been more important, more profound and more healing than any of the really powerful spiritual experiences that I've had.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Cause it's so human.
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. And it's more integratable into our day to day. And it's, it feels like an experience you're having here in this plane rather than in some other dimension, . And and there's something really magic about that.
Lana Pribic: Mhm. Yeah, I think that's the nature of a lot of these earth medicines, right? They're very earthy and very grounded and very Integratable and applicable to life on earth. Maybe other than ayahuasca because that can take you some interesting places, but[00:24:00]
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. That's its own thing.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, absolutely. What about the dosing, right?
, I've heard that you can even supplement daily with kanna, which I'd love to hear your perspective on and then what is a micro dose? What is considered a high dose? What is a recreational dose? What is a ceremonial dose? Can you talk to us a little bit about dosing?
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. That's really important, especially as you start to see more and more kanna products out there. Because. Not unlike cannabis or mushrooms, the amount of plant material that you're working with is irrelevant. What's really important is the alkaloid content of, what's in the product or the extract or the plant that you're working with.
And so when I say alkaloid, these are compounds. Found within the plant naturally that when you take them, they have a pretty big [00:25:00] effect on your body. You feel them. So psilocybin is an example of an alkaloid that's found in mushrooms. THC is not technically an alkaloid, but that's like the main compound inside of cannabis that you are using to evaluate how strong the strain is.
So within kanna, mesembryne. Is that benchmark alkaloid that you use to evaluate the quality of a strain, the strength of a strain or how strong of a dose that you're taking. So that's really what you need to look at. And so a micro dose of kanna is really anything between, again, this is going to be relative for everyone's different, but really you're looking at Five milligrams of mesobrine or less.
And this is a very potent alkaloid. And I'm sorry, three milligrams of mesobrine or less is a very potent alkaloid. This is, [00:26:00] it's measurably active on a microgram scale. And there are very few substances on the planet that are that potent. So you can take a much lower dose. And a lot of the studies come from a company called Zembrin they patented an extract of kanna and it's just a standardized extract, but it's used for pharmaceutical application.
It's prescribed for depression, anxiety, and a lot of the studies, if you go on PubMed and search for it, they're backed by Zembrin and that's what they're studying and you'll see that. a very low dose of mesembryne can actually have a profound effect on anxiety and depression when you start going above Of five milligrams That's when you're getting more into the stronger felt effect in the moment with so there's a lot of alkaloids in kanna, this is a very botanically complex plant.
There's at least 28 known alkaloids that each have unique effects [00:27:00] on our body when you take them. But the three that. We're really concentrated on our mesenbrine, mesenbrinone and delta 7 mesenbrinone. And it's with these three alkaloids that we're able to create extracts that can have a more stimulating effect or a more relaxing sedating effect and a broad range of effects in between.
Because the mesenbrine is what is stimulating, like this is responsible for that euphoric and pathogenic effect. Where mezembranone is slightly relaxing but where it really stands out is it appears to have PDE4 inhibition and without getting too sciencey into what PDE4 inhibition means or does it pharmaceutical PDE4 inhibitors.
are used as like anti psychotics, so they, it has a lot of benefits for more intense mental health issues [00:28:00] like, like schizophrenia or bipolar. And that is part of what the mezembranone does is act as an anti psychotic. And then Delta seven is the very relaxing, sedating alkaloid. With the ratio of those three alkaloids to each other we create different blends.
Lana Pribic: Fascinating. Okay, so that's why you have the bliss and the lift. So I guess bliss would be probably more calm, relaxing, and lift is more stimulating.
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. So Lyft has a much higher mesenbrine content where where bliss is more balanced. It's lower mesenbrine higher, both Delta seven and mesenbrinone. And that. Is it noticeably different effect where like the bliss I personally think is really great for in ceremony, especially if you combine it with other substances, whether that's MDMA or or mushrooms, like it, it really makes it a beautiful heart body experience.[00:29:00]
Where the lift is like a more outgoing outward. A lot of people take it intranasally so it's actually like quite a great alternative for more harmful substances, for more recreational intentions.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, I love that possibility for kanna. I was actually at a party and this guy gave me some kanna and he was so shocked that I knew what it was. And he was like, man, I wish more people knew about this because it's so much safer and it's natural. So it sounds like with the dosing, it's... It just depends on the alkaloid profile and the percentage point in
Ryan Latreille: oh, sorry, yeah, sorry, I went so deep into the alkylates, I forgot the original question. So yeah, the dosing yeah. Using these extracts as an example they're quite lab tested. So it's a 15 percent total alkaloid profile. And with that, anything under 25 milligrams or less is [00:30:00] more in like the daily therapeutic, even 50, you could take daily.
And then it's above that, that it starts to get. More recreational and the upper limit would be 200 milligrams of an extract like that. And again, what you, if you're evaluating different kind of products, you really do need to look at that alkaloid content and compare that. And, I imagine a lot of people listening are not.
novices to working with plant medicines and learning your dose is really important. Starting low, finding out what, where your body responds to it before starting to go up from there.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Okay, so 25 milligrams to 200 is the working range here, depending on what your
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. Yeah. Where 10, 10 milligrams daily has been really effective for again, I'm referring to Xembrin studies, but like that equivalent. Has shown to be really effective [00:31:00] for depression and anxiety.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, amazing. With the daily use, that's treating it as a supplement,
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. So that, yeah. And that's what like the Hearthstone line is really designed to make it easy. to take daily. It's pre dosed. There's a different formula for different use cases. I think maybe you tried, I sent you the Tincture to try. So that's a pretty low dose. One one dose, three drops, has about one milligram of mesenbrine in it.
And so you can take that up to three times a day. Anyway so the point is that there's a lot of different applications for it based on what your need is and what best suits your lifestyle.
Lana Pribic: If you're taking it daily as a, supplement or whatever, a medicine, do you need to take breaks? Wow.
Ryan Latreille: That's a good question. So the way I would answer that is everyone's different. If you're developing a microdosing protocol, [00:32:00] working with a microdosing coach. Can be really helpful. Someone who really knows the terrain and like the different pathways that you can take and how to establish personalized metrics to evaluate okay, I need more.
I need less. I need to take a break. That said, you can take kanna daily. It is not addictive. It does not produce a tolerance.
Lana Pribic: Wow.
Ryan Latreille: yeah. In fact, most people find that the more that they take kanna, the less that they need it. And the less that they, they want it we could go pretty deep into the pharmacology, but it is doing a lot to bring your own systems back to a healthy functioning state.
I personally recommend that people if they're going to take it daily to do some kind of sequenced protocol where there's on days and off days. I think five days on, two days off is a really good place to start regardless of what you're microdosing. And then from there, doing more or less based on what your body seems to respond to.[00:33:00]
But there are people that take kanna every day. Their whole lives. And that precedent has been set by the traditional cultures who do use it. Like the San still use kanna quite very regularly and they they use it from birth until death. So when a baby is colicky or teething they'll take fermented kanna and put it in breast milk and give it to the baby to help with the pain.
They take it regularly throughout their whole lives. The elder members of these communities that use kanna almost daily, they seem to be more lucid, have better cognitive faculties than those who don't, and they're all well adjusted members of the community. So it's not really something that is.
Lana Pribic: Fascinating. So what would set apart like someone [00:34:00] who would benefit more from that daily low dose of around 10 milligrams and someone who would benefit more from the microdose protocol of 25 to 50 milligrams?
Ryan Latreille: I think anyone looking for support I personally use the bliss. I have actually I'm really excited. I have vapes that are coming. I don't know when this will air, but there's kind of vapes that are coming
Lana Pribic: so excited about those.
Ryan Latreille: and this has become my new go to. I've moved through all of my products that I make.
I really like kanna for anxiety. And especially like I have situational, or I experience situational anxiety, so public speaking is a big one. And it really helps.
Lana Pribic: Is that why you have the vape beside you right now?
Ryan Latreille: yeah, so the vape is incredible. It's incredible. It, I feel the way that I wish I felt when I smoked weed. I get very anxious when I smoke weed and [00:35:00] I don't seem to be able to function cognitively when I take it.
And this just immediately, just, I feel so good. It just melts away stress. I actually. Physically feel less tension in my body. But I still feel very clear. So I, this has become my new go to before that it was just the bliss. I would just take two scoops under my tongue. I supply some brands with just bulk extracts.
And so they put it into drinks, they put it into edibles, they put it into sublingual tinctures. So really it's I guess just find what works for you. For me, I love the bliss. It really helps with it's just stress in general. And I think that it's harder to notice this, but it really has helped with continuous daily use with just...
Raising the baseline, of just being more positive and optimistic and in general on a daily basis, being [00:36:00] able to be more resilient to just an incredibly stressful world, it seems like right now. So I, I believe that this can help everyone. That's why I'm doing this, but it's such an individual journey.
I guess I would just. Because it's risk profile is so low I do think that it's worth exploring for most people.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I'm thinking of my mom who you know is a ball of anxiety and stress and Rightfully, so she's survived a war with me in her arms as a baby like she hasn't had a lot of time to Heal herself. So she it expresses itself through her anxiety And I got her on to micro dosing mushrooms for a while and she actually without even asking me You know, listen to my kanna microdosing episode and started microdosing the kanna that I have from you and She said that she really prefers it to [00:37:00] microdosing mushrooms and that it's been really supportive for her anxiety So we're gonna keep her on that and see what happens in the long term But it sounds like it's just really supportive for people who are managing anxiety particularly
Ryan Latreille: that's really cool. I really that means a lot to me. Yeah. Can I ask what the, what war you're referring to? Can I, more about that?
Lana Pribic: Yeah. The Kosovo conflict and former Yugoslavia. So it started when I was like six months old and yeah we went through that together as a family and I've obviously done so much therapy around it and healing with the plants, but my parents haven't, they still have those like forms of anxiety that are present.
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. Imagine just real PTSD.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Someone like my mom who is dealing with the day to day anxiety and just wants to get through the day [00:38:00] more peacefully do you think something like the microdosing protocol with a slightly higher dose or the daily supplementation would be better for her?
Ryan Latreille: Honestly, I would ask her what appeals more to her. I'm always surprised by people in general. and I, it's really cool to see how open people are to kanna. It seems to be that. Just the general sense is that it is a great entry point for people to explore. This is much less intimidating.
It doesn't have a lot of the, everything that comes with, the 60s and what was used in the 60s. So for her in particular, I think I would give her the bliss. I would give her one to two scoops of the bliss. And I would either put it in a drink, unless she can just it is a very bitter extract, but if she can handle the taste under her tongue I, I [00:39:00] think that would be great.
Lana Pribic: What she's been doing. Yeah. So for people who are listening in a similar situation. Yeah, maybe give it a shot for managing those daily stressors.
Ryan Latreille: yeah, I think it, this is probably a good point to talk about contradications and who might not want to explore kanna or when you should talk to a doctor first.
, so the risk profile is very low for kanna. There's no known lethal dose. There's no one that has died on kanna, at least that I know of. And I have done a lot of research on it. The people that want to be careful, and like the general blanket disclaimer I have for... My products is that if you are on really any medication, you need to talk to your prescribing physician before really engaging in any of this kind of work.
But particularly SSRIs. And MAOIs those are the two that you'd really want [00:40:00] to be careful about. It's advised not to take kanna and those at the same time. If you are currently prescribed those and you want to explore kanna, then talk to your doctor about it. The potential risk factor is having a serotonergic reaction.
This is serotonin syndrome which at the most extreme side effect is death. The least extreme is just feeling like a headache. And then that's a pretty broad range in between. So yeah because there is a risk of that's why it's advised not to combine. A lot of people still want to take the kanna because they are, especially when it comes to SSRIs, people are looking for alternatives.
They don't have side effects, and so they want to explore something like kanna. And I've found that a lot of doctors want to support their patients in finding natural alternatives too. It actually is probably a pretty easy conversation to have. The hardest part will just [00:41:00] be that a lot of them don't know about kanna.
If you'd I can send you a a link to different research and you could maybe post it in the show notes or something for people to be able to look at more of what research is out there and available and they could show that to their doctors. What I would say is that if you are taking low doses of kanna the risk of having that kind of reaction is pretty low.
It's really when people are taking high doses of psychedelics, like really high doses, and they're doing it a lot that you start to see people incestorize.
You don't see a lot of that with low dosing and my experience with it has been that is that the side effects do begin to appear gradually. So it's something that you notice and if you notice it, then you can make adjustments like cut, cut one of them out. And that's why I think that if you do.
You are being prescribed these medications and you work with a doctor. That's [00:42:00] a dialogue that you could be having to do it safely potentially. But yeah, other than that there's not, it's not like taking psilocybin or LSD, like generally, if you're like bipolar or something like that you might want to be careful.
This plant has a much safer profile. And I should say, if you have a medical condition like that, you should also be talking with your doctor before starting anything. But as I mentioned that mezembranone is a PDE4 inhibitor, and it does seem that PDE4 inhibitors do have a lot of benefits for mental health issues like that.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And so it does impact the serotonin system the serotonin transmitters. Can you speak just a little bit about like the neurochemistry, what's going on in the brain, what kanna is affecting?
Ryan Latreille: Okay, I'll try to speak just a little bit, but cut me off if I get too deep into it.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. It doesn't have to be super scientific. Just give people my listeners know that they're not
Ryan Latreille: okay.
Lana Pribic: super in depth science [00:43:00] on my podcast, but if you could just speak into what effects are happening in the brain or the
Ryan Latreille: Yeah a lot. And this is what we know so far, and it's really exciting. Okay, it's a biomean releasing agent. It's stimulating the release of more serotonin, more norepinephrine. into the synapse. And just that has a lot of effect. Just having more of those neurotransmitters available have broad broad reaching effects.
It also has light SSRI activity. So it functions. It's similar to a way that a synthetic SSRI does, but I would say in a more natural or healthier way, doesn't seem to have any of the side effects that come with synthetic SSRIs. And it's, yeah, it functions lightly in that capacity where it's preventing the reuptake of these neurotransmitters.
So that there's more available. It is [00:44:00] also a PDE4 inhibitor and PDE4 inhibitors, as I mentioned, are used quite successfully in the pharmaceutical world as antipsychotics. It is a VMAT2 up regulator which, basically when VMAT2 is inhibited, it actually promotes the breakdown of dopamine.
So it increases dopamine levels when you have a VMAT2 up regulator, as well as a lot of pro cognitive benefits. But really, if you're just looking at it with these three modes of action, it's really doing a lot to increase the amount of Dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, it's part of the reason why you feel great when you take kanna.
But also, if you look at all the functions that these neurotransmitters play, kanna is helping upregulate that from start to finish. And something actually very interesting about VMAT2 that I just read. Last night is if you [00:45:00] Wikipedia the God gene it looks at this theory, this and this book that was written about vmat two up regulators and there's something that it does for the brain that allows it to be more like mystical experiences to be more accessible.
Which I think is really cool. And again, there's a lot of criticism and skepticism of how valid this is, but it would speak to its use in microdosing with these indigenous cultures in acting as a gateway.
Ryan Latreille: [00:00:00] And I think that's something really cool about microdosing Kanna as like a plant medicine is that it's opening up your own intuitive channels. Your own access to to spirit. And that is something that I've heard anecdotally a lot by people that work with Kanna in a more plant medicine ceremonial context.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. And that just opens us up to all the answers that are already within us and the transformation that can happen with that. It's so much more powerful when we are able to find. That source of wisdom within us versus, reading about it in a book or listening to someone else talk about it So it's powerful stuff and it sounds like it's really a nootropic like powerhouse in the brain.
Ryan Latreille: Totally. If you think about the role that dopamine plays with how we currently approach ADD and ADHD with medications it does seem like a [00:01:00] more natural way to approach what's happening with dopamine and helping with, Concentration and focus and presence.
Lana Pribic: huge I know I have a huge group of listeners who Resonate with being neurodivergent or have an ADHD diagnosis So that's very helpful. Can you talk a little bit about the research? I know we're going to link it for people below, but are there any general strokes that you can paint for us about what the research has found over the years and is there any long term effects?
That people should be aware of.
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. So with the research it's what it was really unique about Kanna is that we have been studying people microdosing Kanna for almost 30 years now, and we don't have that length of microdosed.
And so that's really cool. I think that really speaks to its safety profile because we know that you can take it [00:02:00] for very long periods of time with not only not side effects, but it seems like without diminishing returns. So that's really cool. A lot of the studies have been funded.
I mentioned a company called Zembrin. And again, this is like true low therapeutic doses of Kanna. So a lot of what you'll find out there is backed by them. And it really, but these are human studies. These are our studies with human participants that are taking it in a different dose range and for both depression and anxiety.
And you can see the efficacy there, which is really exciting. Is pretty safe. It doesn't have any of the side effects that that most people report when they're on like an antidepressant. I would say the most common side effects that I hear or see are. Like a headache or nausea, and it's pretty rare.
[00:03:00] Yeah, there is some really cool, I don't know if you would call this research as much as other companies that are starting up with Kanna that are more in this phyto pharmaceutical. So there are some really cool companies that are in the, they're pharmaceutical companies, but they are looking to create completely like naturally derived compounds that have real medical efficacy.
And so there's a company called Kanna health. That is developing a a Kanna product that is designed to help with like men's sexual health. I think it's primarily marketed for premature ejaculation, but there are also unique alkaloids in Kanna that act as a natural PDE5 inhibitor, which is how like Viagra works.
So that's one thing I've heard. I have heard. Of companies that are, or at least one company that is developing it's supposed to [00:04:00] act as a stepping stone for therapists that want to start working with clients with something that is legal and feels like an MDMA. So that's really cool too. So that's on the horizon at some point. Yeah, that's what comes to mind as far as the research,
Lana Pribic: what can you say about the similarities and differences between Kanna and MDMA?
Ryan Latreille: So they're both bioimmune releasing agents. They're both releasing more of these neurotransmitters into your synapse. The biggest difference is that the phenethylamines like MDMA, they all have an amphetamine component to it. They need that stimulant to activate it and Kanna lacks that on its own, which is why it's not really fair to say that it's a natural MDMA because it doesn't have that, that on its own.
And that stimulant really is what creates that rolling feeling. That you have when you take [00:05:00] MDMA. So there's a pretty big difference. And I think it's important to level set expectations for people when they take Kanna. That said, Kanna, when you add that stimulant component to it, you can do some really cool things.
And even at the low end with something that's legal, like caffeine, if you combine with caffeine, like if it feels really amazing if you combine it with MDMA and I know there's a lot of people that are running around facilitating experiences with like, Basically, MDMA and Kanna it's incredible.
Like it, it doesn't feel like either. It's its own thing. It, you still have a profound heart opening, but it's so smooth and gentle and you don't feel all wired and strung out the next day.
And my, my preferred is actually mushrooms. Because, Because psilocybin is stimulated [00:06:00] enough to where it's I don't know, it's beautiful and you feel a lot better the next day. Like I've, you feel great and you can do a microdose of mushrooms or you can do a full dose with, again, the same amount of Kanna or at least the bliss extract, a hundred to 200 milligrams.
And you, it'll feel like a real heart opening. And it really grounds the experience in the heart and. It's not it's not MDMA MDMA is great, but if if you've done MDMA a lot it really starts to take a toll on you.
And start looking for alternatives to that. And I think Mushrooms and Kanna is a great alternative to that.
Lana Pribic: yes, following the harm reduction protocols with MDMA is important, right? Shouldn't be more than a couple times a year. Okay. Wow, so much information. I cannot wait to explore Kanna more now that I've gotten a taste of it with... Microdosing, I'm so excited to try this vape pen, [00:07:00] and to see how it mixes and combines with different medicines, and I'm excited for my mom, too, to explore this.
And for everyone listening.
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. Me too. I I'm a big fan of Kanna. I I wonder if I can show you. This is a paint, my mom's an
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Ryan Latreille: And I commissioned her to, I just moved into my new house but I commissioned her
Lana Pribic: Wow, so beautiful.
Ryan Latreille: Yeah, she did that one
Lana Pribic: So gorgeous.
Ryan Latreille: Yeah. So yeah, I'm all in on Kanna. And always happen to
Lana Pribic: Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing everything today. The last thing I want to ask you about is why someone would choose to work with an extract versus a tincture or the capsules. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Ryan Latreille: Yeah, that's a good question. The extracts I wanted to offer in their pure form because I'm a formulator, a medicine maker, and I just really like to work with the raw [00:08:00] material. And so I think if you are a medicine maker or medicine person, that it's really cool to work with the raw extracts.
Because then you can make your own blend. Also if you're going to take it intranasally, Obviously, if you want a really pure extract
The powders are great for intranasally. I think the vapes are an amazing application. It's become my favorite because it's such a fast onset. And the feeling is so much different than when you take it
Lana Pribic: And how would you work with the vape?
Can you just keep hitting it? What do you?
Ryan Latreille: So I have given it to people and they feel it right away. I've taken it and it doesn't hit me until 20 minutes later.
So I think what's important is that you the first time you're doing it, you just do a few puffs, see how you feel
this is a new product that's literally in development still. So that's why I don't have the answer to that, but I would say the upper dose would be hitting it. Like.
[00:09:00] Um, uh, So how you could take it is if you're in a social setting, you're at a party, you don't want to drink, you don't want to take something more intense, but you want to feel good and more open. This is a great thing to take. If you deal with anxiety, this is incredible. If you deal with episodic anxiety, this is a great application.
They're nicotine free, they're cannabis free , you're not high, you just feel really good when you take it. I have the Hearthstone line, which is a sublingual in the line of capsules. For people that are looking for more specific help with a different area.
Like with focus or with sleep, or you can see the whole line that's on there. Those are very intentionally designed stacks with other plant medicines to really support that particular area of mental health. And designed to be taken daily like you would any other supplement. And so those [00:10:00] are very easy to use.
So we got into a little bit about the extract itself. And the way that like the traditional preparation, the plant would have much lower concentration of these alkaloids than what we're able to produce now. , but the plant is also in its raw form.
It's really high in oxalic acid. So what the , the Koi and the San really intelligently discovered was that they had to find a way to get rid of the oxalic acid. And so they would masticate, but they would grind the Kanna. And it's a succulent, it's full of its own juices and water.
And they would put all of that smashed plant material into a skin or a gourd and let it ferment. And that fermentation process would eat up all the oxalic acid, and then they would dry it, and then the two most common ways of taking it would be to [00:11:00] either chew on it, so they would braid it up and then chew on it, and that would be like a microdose form, but they would also take that dry material and smoke it.
And that would be a much stronger way of taking it and there is a strong belief in the anthropological community that they would also combine it with other compounds, like cannabis is a really ancient combination that they would combine and smoke it for a more mystical experience.
Lana Pribic: Should people look for with the alkaloid content?
Ryan Latreille: I would look for an actual lab test, ideally a third party lab test, not a COA that's generated in house by the company. And and on that lab test, I would at least look for what the mesoprene content is. And if, ideally other alkaloids, find out how much mesenbrinone or delta 7 or mesenbrinol, how much all those are in there.
I would say look for the mesenbrine because that's the easiest one to test for. Not a lot of labs have the reference standards to test for the other [00:12:00] alkaloids,
Lana Pribic: Is there a percentage that would classify one as table grade versus a nutraceutical,
Ryan Latreille: No, it's not that as much as just. I've never seen high potency products come out of table grade. That's more of what I'm saying, rather than you being able to look at a percentage and see.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, I think that this is a wealth of information for people who are out there. Thinking about engaging with Kanna. So thank you so much for sharing. Can you just let people know where they can find you and your products and where they can get in touch with you?
Ryan Latreille: Yeah, so Kannaextract. com is where you'll find the pure extracts and eventually the Kanna vapes. And then the Instagram or social media for that is just at Kanna extract. And then if you go to hearth stone collective.com that's all the daily use Kanna products. We also offer formulation and [00:13:00] product design.
Design and bulk kind of extracts so you can reach out to either of those companies. If that's of interest as well.
Lana Pribic: Perfect. And we'll post all of that in the show notes. And I have codes where people can save a little bit of money for both your companies. So we'll make sure we put that in there as well. Anything else you want to leave our listeners with today?
Ryan Latreille: No. Thank you so much. I had a blast.
Lana Pribic: Thank you so much, Ryan. We'll talk to you soon.
