072 | Psychedelic Professionals Need To Actually Do Psychedelics + 2023 Policy Updates
“We are in dire need of harm reduction education and groups that are committed to helping people understand the law and helping people understand how to start and work through a psychedelic journey.”
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Courtney Barnes is a attorney in the psychedelic & cannabis space. She thought she was "good" ... until she wasn't. Today, she is sharing her story of taking a step back from lawyering, in order to go inward. She shares about how her recent Ibogaine & Ayahuasca journeys have illuminated the depth of this work. As a result, she is better able to understand the nuances of policy and regulation around psychedelics.
One of the important lessons she learned is the importance of incorporating preparation, integration & harm reduction within policy frameworks. Her story shows how important it is for people in the psychedelic space to have an understanding of psychedelic altered states , as we’re creating a totally new medical and therapeutic paradigm unlike ever before.
This episode is a testament to how important it is for people working in the psychedelic space -- especially within regulatory roles -- to actually understand what its like to go deep with psychedelics. Courtney also provides listeners with the latest updates in policy and regulation.
Topics Covered:
Courtney’s recent Ayahuasca ceremony and healing the divine feminine
How ibogaine treatment catalyzed her spiritual awakening
Taking a step back from work while going inwards to heal trauma
How Courtney’s healing break has informed her Psychedelic Advocacy work
Learning to go beyond logic as a Lawyer
Updates on legalization & decriminalization of psychedelics
How voter initiatives have been changing the psychedelic legal landscape
Oregon Model: The regulated access model for psilocybin
Accessibility to psychedelic therapy, as it’s rolling out in North America
Updates to equitable access and equal opportunity
Updates in law enforcement implementation of decriminalization policies
Where harm reduction and psycho-education fits into policy development
Where preparation and integration fit into policy
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“[My psychedelic experiences] have provided me with more wisdom when it comes to the policy work that I do and also the way that I talk and provide my perspective and influence on psychedelic use and access. I had to have those experiences in order to be a leader in this space.”
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Things Mentioned in This Episode
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“Once I went through my ibogaine experience and realized that I hadn’t been in my body for 29 years like opened up all the trauma I had been carrying.”
Looking for a professional coach to support you on your psychedelic path?
Look no further! Along with being the host of the Modern Psychedelics Podcast, Lana is a 3x certified professional coach who works with people on the psychedelic path.
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Lana Pribic: Miss Courtney Barnes, welcome back to the show. It's been over two years since you were last on. You were like one of our OG guests.
Courtney Barnes: Thank you. I know it's been lifetimes, honestly.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And we were just chatting a little bit before and I haven't heard too much 'cause I wanna catch up on the air. But you were recently at Reunion in Costa Rica. I would love to hear about that 'cause I did a few episodes about my experience there. So I'm sure listeners would love to hear about how it went for you as well.
Track 1: Yes. So it's my actually two week anniversary if you count sort of Thursday night being the last night where you sit with the medicine, but it was divinely orchestrated. I actually won the trip at the MAPS conference. I was at the veteran's dinner with a client who is accompanied comprised of veterans and got the little dinner time raffle and was.
1 36. And so I held onto it, got my passport renewed, and wasn't really sure when I [00:01:00] wanted to go. And then things fell into place for me to attend at the beginning of August. And it was wonderful. It honestly really upped the standard for my retreat experience. It's this beautiful beach resort air conditioned rooms.
So you get the sort of western comfort, but also very focused
on like the indigenous lineage and tradition and, and wisdom there. So it was the perfect blend for me as someone who's had some ayahuasca experience but has never gone to Peru or anything, purely in the jungle or things like that.
And I thought it was a great balance of professionalism and ancestral knowledge.
Lana Pribic: And you sat with Ayahuasca. What was the lineage that you I was with, I was doing the shabo medicine. What was your experience?
Track 1: So it was related to the Shabo medicine. He, the shaman wasn't from there exactly, but it was very much that teaching [00:02:00] and with a little bit of flare. His name was Tattoo Nu and really wonderful, still had the Ros and we sat in the what is the name for it? Essentially the sweat lodge, which they
added to it. Yes.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Track 1: and it was really, it was absolutely wonderful. I had never had the Eeros experience while sitting with Ayahuasca. It had always been like pre-recorded music or playing along with pre-recorded music. So it really made a big difference.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. So special. And isn't there a team like Karina and Julian, and I'm sure you met Mariana and yeah. Everyone, aren't they just amazing?
Courtney Barnes: They're angels. They're absolute
angels. And you could feel that energy while they were singing and being part of the ceremony and just their non-judgment
and support and really calm, quiet presence. You end up talking more because they're just such like a safe space. It was a very safe space.
I felt very safe [00:03:00] and open and it was one of those experiences where you went in there. I had my own room because I, that's some of the work that I like to do, which is be by myself. And went in there and it was about 20 people and thought. I have very little in common with any of these people and by the end of it, you're all best friends.
And actually there were a few random synergistic connections. I had a cousin of one of my old friends from college there who responded when there was a picture of us and someone I was supposed to be on a panel with. So it's pretty magical how the universe brings people together for exactly what you need at
the time. But the team there is awesome. I really like the nonprofit model and how they're
giving back. And I highly recommend I actually hope, I think my mom's going to go sometime this year, so I'm very excited
Lana Pribic: Oh amazing. I'm so happy to hear that you had a positive experience. what were some of the themes that you got into when explored within yourself with the medicine?
Courtney Barnes: It was [00:04:00] honestly, and we will talk, I'm sure a little bit about this, but I went into it with a lot of fear because I have had some pretty, in a way, retraumatizing, psychedelic experiences where I've un repressed things from childhood and just difficult scenarios and not really had the preparation or wisdom to experience those journeys from a detached or separated perspective where I've been very much re-experiencing those things.
So I was in a rough place emotionally and. And wanted some guidance on my relationships and my purpose at work and professionalism and but have a lot of fear come up and they say, the journey starts pretty much as soon as you sign up to go.
And I,
And I very much felt that where the week before was all sorts of emotions, but it was so loving and [00:05:00] beautiful and sequential from night one to night four, it was very much about healing my womb and my divine feminine and just the being the essence of love and my purpose being on earth to love and heal and love myself and seeing myself as this divine light being.
So it was almost like fantasy, like in a way, but it was very much like, Balancing my divine feminine and my divine masculine and just honoring my body. The first night was very physical and felt very much like I mentioned, like womb healing and powerful and feminine. And then the second night was bliss, just like the most divine love I've ever experienced.
It. It was incredible. And then the third night was like an interesting lesson because I have these sort of death and rebirth experiences similar to being on five M [00:06:00] E D M T, and I'm comfortable with those. I actually really enjoy those 'cause it does feel like such an energetic reset. But when I was doing my intentions, the second time I left out my body, I was like, I wanna do a, mind, spirit, soul, emotional rebirth and to like finish where night two was.
And what a lesson that was. 'cause my body totally rejected the medicine. It was like, oh, if you're not thinking that we're important, huh? And I had more than I did before and it just was like very uncomfortable but pretty profound in like the wisdom that it was saying, which was honor your body.
This is
an equally important part of the process here and you can't just be all al and wanna have your spiritual experience and not be grounded and respectful of your temple. And so while that one was not as enjoyable, it was still provided some depth. And
I made an apology [00:07:00] to someone whom I thought I had already made amends with.
But it was very much like an ego, passive tit for tat apology. And the ayahuasca taught me and showed me that. I needed to sincerely apologize. So that was a, so night three was a bit more of an ego death and a humbling experience. And then night four was tying it all together, which was just like a graduation look how far you've come.
And there's no need to be afraid now because not that you've done it as if my work is over, but just sudden you've, you can rest now. And so it was so beautiful.
Lana Pribic: Wow.
Track 1: It was really beautiful. And then now the, like real work starts where you're
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Track 1: you journaling and you still have your intrusive thoughts and your anxiety and things like that.
Or my, excuse me, my anxiety and my intrusive thoughts, but at least I have space in between them
to have that awareness to stop
myself and say, you totally made that up. Huh? Where did [00:08:00] that come from?
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And in a way, like we're human, we're always gonna have to deal with those intrusive thoughts of the mind. But it is that space that plant medicine allows us to have that puts us at a choice point about okay, I'm observing it now and I'm aware of it now, so I'm not reacting to it.
I'm more like, what do I want to do with this? And that's really the work.
Track 1: Absolutely. No that's so well put. And I got off of Vyvanse or Adderall essentially a little bit less than a year ago. And that was like one of my big take home things with Ayahuasca was how grateful I was to finally have space between my thoughts.
It didn't, heal or correct or however you wanna phrase it, all of my patterns.
I, but at least I
can knock it wrapped up in it so easily. And so that's
a blessing. If anything,
if nothing else, .
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned that [00:09:00] you had an experience with Ibogaine last year. I'm curious, was there teachings of the Bleedy wisdom within that container? Because the mind and those thoughts are such a huge part of that. So what was your experience like with that?
Track 1: a drastically different . It was a big, honestly, I Ibogaine did to catalyze my spiritual awakening. It made me believe in God after, teenage and young adulthood of feeling like there's no way that there could be a presence or like that because why would life be this way? And
Ibogiaine provided such a profound intelligence, almost in an intense, sort of unnerving way for me.
In the sense that it showed me essentially all of the pain I had been carrying. I didn't go in the like future or have any real galactic experience. It was [00:10:00] very much like a montage of my trauma. And it was at a point in my psychedelic journey where I wasn't prepared to detach myself from what I was experiencing.
So I very much went back to that ashamed, scared little girl. And I met my inner child, but we both scared the hell out of each other, . So it was like the beginning of a re it was, that in essence was a true rebirth in that I had just been living so unconsciously for so long and I was, you know, have a, was a good person, but I just had no idea and was very unaware.
And I began woke me up to . All of the work that I've been doing for the past year. And so it was very difficult experience for me, but one of the greatest things to ever happen to me in my lifetime and absolutely part of my soul journey. And that it, it a awakened me to my soul again. And that's really beautiful.
, it was very [00:11:00] much like a rewind of my life and very focused. And I think I also shocked myself where I probably forgot a lot of the journey too, because I was so enmeshed in the
parts
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Oh, I feel such a deep resonance with everything you're saying. Journeys have been very parallel. I think you said something really interesting about it made me believe in God because I grew up thinking like if God is real, then why is life, like, why is there all this shit that we have to deal with?
So I'm curious. Yeah. Like from that paradigm, it's very like, God is good and only good, and if God were real, wouldn't everything be good and loving? I'm curious, how is it that you understand God now?
Track 1: It is an evolving relationship, but it's so beautiful to finally like get in touch with your intuition and the synchronous annuities and just the connected nature [00:12:00] of life as one big soul lesson and journey. And I was talking to someone earlier this morning actually about that, and you can have different perspectives on reincarnation and karma and all of those things, but the way that I have been able to best use that experience is to go with the philosophy that.
We as souls pick our family and we pick our challenges and our life experiences to focus on the lessons that we signed up to learn during this lifetime. And I do believe that we do carry certain karmic lessons from previous incarnations if we don't learn those lessons. But in handling the, shame and embarrassment or anger that I felt about different experiences in my life or people in my life that I couldn't wrap my head around otherwise was that, we as these spiritual beings [00:13:00] pick these lessons for our highest growth and self.
And that's helped me have a lot more acceptance with things. But the more you can zoom out, the more I've just realized that everything is really perfect and it's really hard to maintain that perspective. But, It
all happens. It all happens in perfect order and timing and and you just as soon as if you can have that awareness and at least curiosity to, to why is this happening for me?
That's been really helpful for me.
Lana Pribic: yeah. Everything has a reason. If we make a reason for it if we can find the greater purpose rather than looking for someone or something to blame, then that's really where we can grow learn and fulfill those karmic paths. If that's what we're on.
Track 1: I, yeah, exactly. I balance between, the being present with life and that's all it is it's supposed to be fun and now and then the like . [00:14:00] The lesson behind everything. And we do have so much information on spirituality and science and all of these things where it is hard to you have to just figure out what works for you and what makes
you feel most present and trusting of, of the universe.
And I do believe we create our own hell or heaven on earth. And
that's the, way that I can try to make the most of every moment
with the, trusting perspective. Trust has been like the big journey on my, since my spiritual awakening has been like learning to trust
and be in the unknown without doubting or fear.
And we're still learning those lessons. But
yeah.
Lana Pribic: may we continue learning them? Yeah. You definitely have a new glow about you. I can feel a new resonance in the way that you're speaking and a new conviction in the way that you're speaking. Since the last time we spoke, I'm curious what's been going on for you professionally and with your career and with your involvement in the psychedelic [00:15:00] industry simultaneously through this spiritual awakening.
Track 1: Yeah, so it's been really interesting. Luckily I am with a wonderful law firm, Feldman Legal Advisors. It's a New York based firm that provides cannabis and psychedelics full scope business and policy services. And that's been incredible because I have a supportive base to not just be in the grind.
I get to work with clients I really care about and have a boss and mentor that really cares about me. So that's been. a blessing because once I went through my, ibogaine experience and realized that I hadn't been in my body for 30 years or 29 years , it like opened up all the trauma I had been carrying.
So I went from this fully focused work [00:16:00] performance, service oriented human to being like, oh my goodness, I haven't thought about me in 15 years. Especially being on Vyvanse nor have I felt any emotion in 15 years, I was just in my head, totally cerebral lawyer mode. So it's been a difficult sort of unlearning and learning of being like, okay, you do love your job.
You are in a great field, but you need to focus. You need to go within for a while so that your cup can be full to help other people. And so it did this sort of temporary but pretty massive like course correct, where I was very in hermit mode and reclusive and went through a dark night of the soul of sorts with a pretty severe depression and just this like
unlearning and, and relearning of, of life as it is. So [00:17:00] I spent most of the past, or I guess I would say six months from August to February, really focusing on getting myself back in alignment and getting to know myself and working on processing those repressed emotions. And now we're through the, this year in.
Spring to summer, getting back out there and being like, okay, I can give back again. And we've done some wonderful things in the interim. I still work with a lot of non-profits here, arts Project and the My Coalition and the Mind Army. And I'm very committed to helping the advocacy work that's happening in the country and have done some cool policy projects.
But, know, to be totally honest, I needed to work on me for a year and we'll see what happens going forward. I am still very passionate about the policy reform movement, but , as being on this path as a leader in the space and walking the path of, of use and healing, there was no other way out.
I was burning at both ends. [00:18:00] I had no, I had nothing left to give for a while.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Sounds like you really reached your tipping
Track 1: Yeah,
Lana Pribic: where there was no choice but to focus on yourself and go inwards and Yeah. It is pretty blessed and amazing that being a professional, a lawyer, you were granted the opportunity to lean into that. I think that's a really cool testament to what's going on the working world right
Track 1: it is. And it's a testament to just if you ask and are looking and are seeking help and guidance from your relationships and, and God, however you wanna call it, like it will be provided And things
magically slowed down for me during that time. And I had, a lot of fear of I'm not doing enough, or I'm going to get fired, or I'm not going to be
relevant anymore. And all of these sort of egoic fears But when the energy came back, the opportunities came back. And I think that's how you have to think about things is that,
[00:19:00] I wouldn't have been able to give a hundred percent at the time and the people that are should, should be having those opportunities at that time.
And, And mine will come to me when I'm ready And
and so yes and super grateful for the psychedelics movement to be happening as it is and for lawyers and all sorts of professionals that are authentically committed to that path. And more than just a profitability sense, but also in a helping people sense
and. Feldman's been really supportive of that.
Lana Pribic: I really commend you for taking that, I call it like a sacred pause for taking that time because it allowed you to really reflect and. Come back from a place of deeper integrity, where like you really are walking the talk, like you're supporting and advocating for these healing experiences through psychedelics, but you've also gone and done that for yourself now, so I can only imagine that would greatly impact the way that you show up for work.
So how has the Sacred Pause [00:20:00] informed the way that you've come back to work and the way that you're approaching your work now?
Track 1: I have a much greater reverence for the journey. I think when I started, I was in cannabis and psychedelics my whole legal career and . Always had that wanna change and better the world mentality. And had, a variety of psychedelic experiences casually, but didn't really understand like the gravity of that work as well as the beautiful, fractal, geometric bliss states that I could provide.
I had really only had great positive experiences and so I began with that first reality check of these things are these compounds are medicine while they can provide, and I begin, not so much on the recreational side, but while they can provide euphoric and blissful and fun recreational experiences, like we need to take their [00:21:00] power very seriously because, , that was the kind of connotation was she's a psychedelic lawyer, she's experienced, she's good.
And then I came out of that being like, I am not good. I'm not okay, and I need help. And so it, it has provided me like a much more a lot more wisdom when it comes to the policy work that I do and also the way that I talk and provide my perspective and influence on psychedelic use and access, because
Lana Pribic: Mm.
Track 1: I, I had to have those experiences in order to in order to, yeah to be a leader in this space.
I believe, I think it's really critical to
understand the dynamic and nuances of psychedelic use. And so now I have that experience and humility when
thinking about . How can we get these compounds to as many people as we can in as safe and supportive and thoughtful way as we can? Because yeah, as we touched on in the beginning, the [00:22:00] post ceremony is where it really gets um, where it can get quite messy.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah, that really is so touching. would you say to people who are listening right now that are in a similar situation that you were a year ago, where like they do on one hand feel so much drive and motivation and inspiration and fire to change the world and make the world a better place, but then also are maybe feeling like they haven't gone there with themselves yet?
Track 1: I, we go back to the human experience, , no one's perfect. We're all trying our best to the extent our consciousness, you know, at the level we're at.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Track 1: and I think, you know, know thyself is a lifetime journey, but it's [00:23:00] important to at least ask those questions and start to do, to have that curiosity and and to be self-aware because it's just we're in such a delicate time and space with these compounds and it's moving so quickly that people just, we just need to be thoughtful of other people too, and not just ourselves and our own journey.
So what
works for me may not work for you. And and I think integration, preparation and administration programs need to encompass all of that.
Lana Pribic: yeah. I think to be leaders, first need to know how to lead ourselves,
Track 1: Yes.
Lana Pribic: right? We first need to know how to lead our own energy before we can. Lead others. And I think when we do go on that journey of learning how to lead ourselves, we actually naturally become leaders for those around us just by being ourselves. How do you approach leadership? How do you think about leadership? This word that you've dropped in a few times today?
Track 1: [00:24:00] Oh,
it's a position of trust. I think, for me is how I would consider it. And I, and your statement on mastery of self, or at least control and respect and understanding of self is so critical, because that's been the biggest thing is when PE. People, trust leaders. It's a position of power in the sense that people are listening to you and making the agreement to believe you generally and to trust you and to take your information for their
own journeys. And I think that's a real privilege. And thinking about my own lack of trust for myself and my lack of trust for others and how that journey has changed. I think I'm like less interested in being a leader in the objective sense, but I know that I can, I have accountability and sincerity and authenticity in what I say.
So while everything I say may not be true or true for you I have that integrity within myself and knowing that at
least[00:25:00] I'm speaking from my heart and I'm speaking my truth. Where if you don't know yourself, then you have no, I, you have no idea. . And that was a big thing, was like just . Accepting information as fact.
And as a lawyer, we're trained to be so intellectual and analytical, but almost in some ways it can be to a detriment because you're listening with a narrow lens. And I think this journey of trusting has also helped me be more open-minded when it comes to listening to.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Like intuition is of our human operating system. So is logic. So is like our gut or our feelings, I think of all these things as part of our human operating system, but when we're only approaching something through the lens of logic, like you said, it's very narrow. We can't see the full picture. weaving in that intuition and those gut instincts what I call holographic thinking. What I learned in coach training, like using logic, [00:26:00] intuition, and your gut, it gives us a full and complete picture what's going on. Like, Imagine. How leaders all over the world would be different if we all used all of these systems.
And it sounds like you're at a place where as a lawyer and as a leader, you're starting to weave in these different ways of knowing beyond logic.
Track 1: It is definitely the beginning, but yes, it's so magical and I get goosebumps just thinking about it, how intelligent our bodies are, and
if you can just pause long enough, and I struggle with that
to sit with those emotions and to feel the feelings before you react. Yeah, our heart and our energy systems are so much more intelligent than our brain. Not that
we don't need both but it was, it's been a massive unlearning of just . A domestication of how I thought and perceived the world and then getting off of Vyvanse and stopping caffeine and things like that. And just, and [00:27:00] slowing has really changed the game for me, but definitely not an expert.
There. We're starting to learn and listen and
be more aware of that entire other like toolkit
we have that we've just as, especially as women have just been taught to ignore and dismiss.
And I think that's a big thing with trust too. Like we were taught as I was taught as a child not to trust my intuition and to trust authority and to trust everything else.
And now it's this balancing act of being like, wait a minute, trust
the self first. And then be open to your biases and flaws and. And people whom you respect and admire. But yeah, it's a lot to unpack.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. I'm so happy that you're on this journey. It's so exciting. Like what a difference since the last time we spoke, 'cause I was just re-listening to our episode this morning and like it was like, it was a great episode and very informative and it was very in the brain.
It was [00:28:00] very logical.
It was very like, this is what's going on. So it's cool to add in this other layer to the work that you're doing.
Track 1: thank you. I know, I can imagine. My, I'm very, I was trained very well to be a lawyer.
Lana Pribic: Speaking of which, how do you feel about giving us a little update, of what's been going on in the legal landscape with the decrim movements, with legalization in the states
Track 1: Yes, of course.
Lana Pribic: Because it was just getting started when we last spoke.
Like I think like Colorado just, and Ann Arbor and like so much has happened since then,
Track 1: Yeah. cause 2021 yep. It's, it all started in 2019 with Denver being the first city to deprioritize the law enforcement of, so aside for adults, 21 years of age and older. And then Oakland came after that at the end of 2020. And then there was a handful cities and towns in 2021 that followed that decriminalized nature resolution language, which is like [00:29:00] Denver and that it deprioritizes the law enforcement of activities that are non-commercial involving natural psychedelic compounds.
So iga, D M T, mescaline and Psilocybin and OSI Peyote has been left out. But yeah, I think there was just a handful and we had no . I think Oregon had just passed in 2020, but wasn't implemented. So lots has changed. So right now we have about 23 plus municipalities that have passed local policy reform measures.
And it's exciting because we are starting to see more creativity in how people can enact policy change across the country. And as I mentioned, Denver was a voter initiative. That's also like Detroit and Washington dc. Those were all enacted via voter initiatives. And those are ordinances. So they go [00:30:00] into the municipal code, all of let's say about 18 or so cities have passed the DEPRIORITIZATION resolutions, which is the decriminalized nature model.
And that's when a city council or town council, as opposed to the voters, Vote to pass legislation that makes it the lowest law enforcement priority in that town or city to arrest individuals who are growing, gathering and gifting natural psychedelics. We also now have seen PE people in positions of power in local government make policy statements.
So in Michigan we had a district attorney that released like a statement of enforcement discretion, which essentially was essentially says that, he was not going to use his time and resources to prosecute cases for low level psychedelics related offenses by adults. And then most recently this year, the mayor of Minneapolis issued an executive order, which essentially says that in [00:31:00] that city it is the lowest law enforcement priority to investigate and prosecute adults who are engaging in non-commercial.
You know, As I mentioned, grow, gather, gifting of psychedelics. So, You know, Implicit call to action here that if you know someone in a city or town who has a position of power within the local government, you can enact change from a practical sense without necessarily having to go through the ballot measure process or even, the local city legislative process.
You can really make a difference by just making a statement that's publicly accessible from either like local law enforcement local positions of authorities such as the mayor or also the district attorneys. So those in charge of prosecuting. So it's exciting. We've had, I think four cities pass this year, more or less, and we're over 20 in the past, less than four years, or a little over four years since we started this movement.
So that's really encouraging.[00:32:00] And then addition at the state level, we have Oregon. Accepting licenses and we have our first healing centers that are starting to operate. And I can give like a little overview of the Oregon program. It is a regulated access model for psilocybin to be used under supervision and you don't need to have a particular indication or a doctor's prescription or an illness or anything like that. You just have to be 21 years of age and older and you can go to a healing center in Oregon, which is a state licensed facility.
And purchase psilocybin and consume psilocybin under the supervision of a trained facilitator. And so licenses and organ that are available include cultivation, manufacturing, treatment centers, facilitators, and testing labs. It's vaguely similar to the cannabis [00:33:00] programs that you see across the country in that it is all state run, but unlike cannabis, you can't purchase it and take it home with you.
You have to u buy it and use it under the care of that license center, and you'll have do a preparation session. You have your administration session, and then you have an optional integration session. But that started in 2020, and then January of this year, the state started issuing or accepting applications for licensure.
And now we have at least two healing centers that have opened about 71 facilitators have been licensed and . We're starting to see the rollout of the Nation's first state legal access program for psychedelics, which is incredible
Lana Pribic: Wow. Wow. That those are some really big movements and changes. What's accessibility looking like? For example, with the Oregon model you just described? Is it accessible to people? What's going on there?
Track 1: [00:34:00] so that's a big unknown still. The pricing, the profitability of these businesses is a complicated concept because on the business side of things, you have to think about. It's a $10,000 if you get your license. It's I think, a $500 application fee. You have to own or have like full control of the property where you're located.
Oregon was allowed to opt out, so not all of the cities in Oregon allow it, but. Some do, and then you, as I mentioned, you're not having like a purchase and then take it home with you transaction. It's a four to six hour session per person.
So if you think about, let's say we have a treatment center that has 10 people going at once, you might be able to have one more round of that in a day.
And they do allow for group models. I think that's a little [00:35:00] bit slower to get started, but that will help in the profitability considerations. But , it's not that many people going through your business every day. So that's in the business side, and that's something that
Is going to need some fine tuning before
you can have the profitability there. On top of, you're not allowed to make your traditional tax deductions 'cause psilocybin is subject to two 80 e just like cannabis. So businesses in the state legal marketplace can't deduct their cost of goods sold like other businesses from a tax perspective,
Lana Pribic: So are these private operations or like state
Track 1: private. So it's all private. And not that's probably the least important consideration, but it is an important consideration when you're talking about accessibility because it
is very expensive and difficult in America, especially for businesses to make money using this model. Not impossible though.
What we're seeing, I know there was like a lot of pushback at first because the initial [00:36:00] access treatments were listed like in the thousands of dollars. And that isn't accessible. It just, it simply is not. And so there's, I think now I've seen something around $700 or something like that. So still very expensive and insurance isn't really covering this.
Insurance could potentially cover,
integration care with the licensed medical professional if you can code it and frame it in that way. But it's not like you can really get help for this.
That is a big problem in Oregon. It's something that Colorado's thinking about as they start to rule, make, and it's not, there's no perfect solution yet.
There's a huge demand. I know that both of the facilities that have opened are already on wait lists and there's not enough healing centers. One to employ the licensed facilitators, but two, to service all the people that want access. But affordability is going to be a very important discussion as these
programs roll out.[00:37:00]
Lana Pribic: So we're making progress, we're making movement, but accessibility and cost wise, we're still not there. Where people going towards these legit businesses rather than the underground market. Like it sounds like there's probably still a lot of incentive for people to be going to the black market, so to speak, to get these uh, medicines.
Track 1: Yes. In Oregon, yeah, because really they just licensed their first center in May and and there's just not enough open, even if, let's say the pricing did make sense, but yes, especially for people that already have experience in this space, the economics. F aren't ideal
for the normal person to get access to these things.
And in Colorado it's a little different. 'cause Colorado actually did decriminalize personal use of all natural psychedelics in addition to
creating its access model. So [00:38:00] there's a greater acceptance of, or it's not necessarily called underground or black market anymore unless you're
engaging in like a business transaction.
But now you can sit
in ceremony in Colorado and share it with other people and grow your own. And that's technically legal in Colorado, which is incredible
Lana Pribic: As long as you're not
charging
Track 1: long as you're not
charging for it. And it's not part of
Lana Pribic: interesting.
Track 1: business um, enterprise you can share, which kind of creates a, like the reverse considerations when it comes to profitability and access in Colorado because there is. Uh, a lot of investor oriented pushback or concern, and they're like why would I want to invest in a licensed business in Colorado if people can just do it without the licensed? But there's a, there
is a great deal of differentiation between what those facilitation programs will look like versus sitting in group ceremony outside of the regulated market, but [00:39:00] it's just, yeah, it's a whole new world when it comes to both policy and business and accessibility in United States.
Lana Pribic: Fascinating. And the last time we spoke, you talked a little bit about equitable access and equal opportunity and about how, these medicines should be available, not just through the clinical and pharmaceutical models, but also for people who are from cultures that use these medicines as sacraments. What progress, if any, have we seen in that in that access, the equitable and equal opportunity?
Track 1: Colorado via decriminalization that implicitly provides more access for that indigenous, ceremonial, ancestral spiritual use component. And that was a discussion and consideration in trying to make decriminalization as broad scope as it [00:40:00] is in Colorado. They also created a working group to promote more indigenous inclusion in the policy making because there was a lot of pushback in Colorado on the lack of inclusivity when it came to creating the policy and rightly so. so that was something that was added in. , the legislation that passed subsequent to the passage of the Natural Medicine Health Act, but nothing, particularly concrete in that regard. California has also added a little bit more language in its Senate Bill 58, which is in will learn in the next week or so, whether that will be viable.
And so it's definitely becoming more of the discussion. But from a, concrete policy standpoint, we still have a lot of work to do in protecting and promoting those mechanisms of healing.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And is that why Peyote wasn't included? Because the culture that works with [00:41:00] Peyote does not want to make it publicly available. What was going on there?
Track 1: Yes. Peyote has
been the subject of intense debate since Oakland passed. Its decriminalized, nature resolution, and . General consensus is that it should not be included in any
expanded access legislation until we can provide safe
and, more sustainable mechanisms to ensure the continued production of peyote.
It is a very controversial subject as to decriminalization and and the argument there is that mescalin is more readily available in all sorts of
other different types of cacti. So we,
Lana Pribic: So Mescal's the synthetic.
Track 1: so yes, but mescal also is the, is actually like the compound that's within peyote, but mescalin can
be found in other plants too, in San Pedro.
And so they're trying to push people to use other sources, including [00:42:00] synthetic
of, forms of mescalin instead, and leaving
peyote alone because it's so sensitive and takes so long to grow and if
harvested
Lana Pribic: 30 years or something.
Track 1: Yeah.
And,
Lana Pribic: very
Track 1: and it's, and you have to be very careful about harvesting it or you can kill it.
And so it's just
as there's so much more interest in these compounds, there's, we put these kind of delicate
providers at greater risk and that goes with five M E
O D M T and combo and, all lots of
other natural sources of healing.
Lana Pribic: yeah. With policymaking and expanding access, it's so important to listen to the medicine keepers of medicines. Do they want us to use these medicines? Do they want to share them? I really appreciate Iboga for that reason. It's a very kind of thorough process to get permission to the medicine [00:43:00] if you're doing it the right way, and to get permission to bring it from Africa to North America. So it's always like, always advisable to, to people listening to really do the research on like, does, does this provider have permission to share this medicine? While the policy around that is still worked out.
Track 1: No, absolutely. I think whenever I talk to people about who are interested in using these compounds is it's really important to talk with, even if you don't have a great deal of understanding, to talk with your potential provider, facilitator, shaman, and
get a sense as to their relationship with whatever
compound it is, whether it's combo or ibogaine, or.
Anything 'cause you, even if you don't know what the right answer is, that's where that intuition and energetic and warnings and things can come in because it is so
important to work with people that really respect the medicine and [00:44:00] that
have the, an ethical relationship with it. And that can be sussed out pretty easily, even if you don't know all the details as to what exactly that should look like.
And there's so much interest in serving the medicine, which you can't blame anyone for. It's will intention to help people, but we really need to be thoughtful about the sustainability component of things that are coming from animals or plants.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's good to hear that the policy surrounding it is considering these things, at least to some extent. Also why working with a direct lineage like we had a chance to at Reunion is so beautiful because, they are coming and sharing their medicine, and wanting to share it.
And we're, receiving this medicine directly from the medicine keepers, which is just such a beautiful experience. It's not the only way to do it, but it definitely, makes it feel very special knowing that like you're sitting with the person that like [00:45:00] carries this medicine and has within their family name.
Track 1: It is. It's really beautiful and provides such like a profound respect for the history and sacred nature of our planet earth. Whereas I used to not be interested in history at all 'cause that's over with, but it really matters especially.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Track 1: As you go down your spiritual path,
Lana Pribic: Yeah, absolutely. And you also spoke last time about this idea of like law enforcement reform. Like even if we are implementing decriminalization uh, legislation, and even if that's all happening at the policy level, sometimes the law enforcement isn't actually up to date and they're not actually enforcing it. What changes, improvements, or even maybe backtracking have we seen in that realm in the last few years?
Track 1: there's been a lot more involvement actually with law enforcement in the policy process and also from an interest in collecting data. [00:46:00] In some of the nonprofits I work with, for example, the Microdosing Collective, they've reached out to law enforcement in Colorado and things like that to get information on and enforcement changes and policy and priorities and things like that.
And, We're actually seeing a larger amount of law enforcement coming out in support of these measures just from a, workload perspective of being like, these things really aren't a priority for us and we need all the resources and time we can get to focus on other things. So that's generally going in the right direction.
But it's still true. Even, you know, when the N M H A passed, there's small towns in Colorado that this isn't a thing for them. They don't care and it's not a problem until someone gets trouble and tries to call it. And, And actually there was someone that got in trouble in Colorado, or arrested at least, and the law enforcement officers had to call the district attorney and be like, what are we supposed to do?
So there's a great deal of education that we still need to be focused on, both [00:47:00] from a user standpoint. The amount of people that I talk to in California that are certain that mushrooms are legal there because it's so accessible. Is a little concerning but also from a law enforcement standpoint of understanding the nuances and the policy so that they can make the right choices.
And we're not putting it on the people to assert their rights, which is just, how it is. So still a lot of work to do but we're seeing some favorable progress with law enforcement, at least not taking issue with it.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, it's always like I'm a, we were just talking about music festivals and burning Man and all that and always so fascinating. I feel like when you enter the gates of a music festival, you're like in an alternate reality. 'cause people are like using all sorts of substances in the open and a lot of the time it's like in front of law enforcement and it's it's an interesting space where ac accept, accepted it.
It's [00:48:00] interesting isn't it,
Track 1: It is, there's. It is a tricky situation. It comes, it's a
privilege thing, but it's also a, it's a luck time and space thing as well. But there is a significant amount of increasing tolerance for it, and I do believe that is
how the world should be in that. These, if you responsibly, truly are not causing anyone harm.
But as an attorney, I would not advise you to do that.
Lana Pribic: Yes, thank you that's what I mean. It's like entering, burning Man is like its own mini city with its own legislation technically, right? 'cause it's that size. But, I think it's always a peak into what responsible use can look like with the psychoeducation, with the harm reduction, with the responsibility taken on the space holders and the event goers.
So I think that's a nice little, like [00:49:00] utopia, perhaps to look at. Of course, within a recreational setting. On the topic of harm reduction and psychoeducation, something, I'm becoming so passionate about myself within recreational spaces, course, because I think that's where it's the most lacking.
Like do you see the harm reduction and psychoeducation fitting in with expanded access and policy?
Track 1: It is. On the harm reduction standpoint, I am very hopeful in the sense that whenever, and it's a pretty small group of people that are working on at least the voter initiated legislation when it comes to like bills and things that are being passed through the legislature, that can vary to a degree, but I always recommend, and it tends to be the case as
When we're doing this policy reform of the Controlled Substances Act of the state level, you do a full review of what is in [00:50:00] those like criminal penal codes related to controlled substances. And so it's been really encouraging to see how many states have removed drug testing equipment from their definition of paraphernalia over the past like four or five years, because that's one of the most, sort of directly alarming anti harm reduction pieces
of policy that exists in the great majority of our state laws is classifying equipment that would ensure that what you're consuming is safe and pure as its own separate crime.
And
so that was the case in Colorado that was removed a couple years ago. New York I believe removed
it. Minnesota just removed it recently, and that's like the most, at least in my opinion, direct like harm reduction tool is testing your drugs. In
addition, the Colorado includes language about education programs.
And I think that will be very important, especially for [00:51:00] consumers. But what we're seeing with more conservative states and the legislation that's being passed is are the creation of working groups within the legislature or state government to study these things. And I think that's a good first step forward in education, which is these state legislatures are saying, we have no idea about any of this.
We're not ready to open the doors yet, but let's at least do some homework. And I think that's a great step forward as even though it doesn't feel like the progress we desire with decriminalization and things like that um, you know, Texas. There's been so many more states, probably about close to a dozen, that have at least passed some sort of research or funding.
Kentucky even just passed like a funding bill for engaging in research related to ibogaine. So we're seeing a renewed interest at the government level and at least revisiting these compounds and learning more about them. [00:52:00] But from a local decriminalization, deprioritization standpoint, we are in dire need of um, harm reduction education and groups that are committed
to helping people understand the law and helping people understand how to start and work through a psychedelic journey.
'cause I had to learn that the hard way of , realizing how important it is to have a support team and, and, and integration tools because it's, 'cause these are very powerful compounds,
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. It's not like a pharmaceutical where you just take it like it's about the prep, it's about the integration, it's about the experience. Part of the package. Where do you see the prep and the integration fitting in when it comes to policy and expanded access?
Track 1: Honestly, if it were my perfect policy after the journeys that I've been on, I would do mandatory integration at least [00:53:00] two or three sessions. I mean, It's hard to say what integration looks like, but even if you feel like you don't need to talk to anyone 'cause you had a nice time or, or, or you had a difficult time and you don't wanna talk, like you really do need to have someone that one has experience with these compounds and understands.
That uniqueness of those experiences. And that's too, that's trauma informed, or at least just trained and educated, so that way you at least have a sounding board that's not going to dismiss you or discredit you or even just give you kind of a broader perspective on how to potentially interpret your experience, whether positive or negative.
Because a lot of people go and have these experiences and then they go to try to talk about their friends and family and they just have no clue. And it can end up being like a little alienating. But also for yourself I'm like, I have never been to therapy. I'm good. I don't need this.
And I do believe that it's just so important to take the time if you're gonna spend four to 12 hours in [00:54:00] a journey to spend another couple hours working on it. And that's honestly . In my opinion, like respect for the medicine too, of just, instead of just jumping back into exactly your old self, like give that reverence to um, so anyway, put simply as someone who rejected integration and thought she did and need it I would require at least two or three integration sessions and then you can
listen to it or not.
And the preparation's equally important. My biggest lesson for people who are doing trauma work, from my experience using psychedelics intentionally is that, the point of the psychedelic journey is not to go back to those traumatic, painful experiences from childhood or from adulthood or whenever.
And relive those experiences as if you are re-traumatizing yourself. And reliving that, that painful emotion. But to go into those [00:55:00] experiences as your adult contextual, compassionate self and provide love and understanding and, and forgiveness or, or a detachment from those experiences and to not get so caught up in it that you can't remember that separation,
that this is, you're going back here for a reason and not just to punish you
And I think that was like the most profound piece of preparation that I have been able to use and to go into difficult situations, which is
this is not to hurt you again, this is so you can heal.
And I think that's, I think that's critical for people that are going with fear into those situations or into those experiences.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Again, like what a testament to like, how important it is to be doing this work if you're working on the policy and legislative side. 'cause imagine you've never had your psychedelic experiences and you're in charge of creating policy and you don't know how important integration or prep is.
It just, it doesn't make sense and it makes a lot of sense as to like why it's going [00:56:00] so slowly, so much more slowly than we wish it would because there's just so much to consider,
there's so many moving parts to consider to roll this out in a safe way.
Track 1: Absolutely. I even used to say or go, 'cause I was a psychology bachelor, that I was like back and forth on whether I thought that facilitators and therapists should have psychedelic experiences and whether that would
bias the way that they reach and talk to the people. And I could go on either side and then after, at this point in my life, I'm like, absolutely, you absolutely need to
have that, understanding at least even from your own worlds experience,
to have compassion and.
Yeah, so we
gotta walk the walk, but we're all just trying.
Lana Pribic: yeah. agree. And yeah, just thank you so much for doing what you're doing and, doing your work while you're doing the lawyering work. ,I wanna end on A question that you can answer [00:57:00] however you'd like, whether it's related to psychedelics or personally or professionally, about what are you super excited about right now?
What's got you lit up?
Track 1: I am most excited about and nervous about the unknown. It is like the first time in my life I have been totally sober. And I don't mean that in an, but like cannabis, Vyvanse. Wine at the end of the day, et cetera. And Ayahuasca gave me that space to be here. Instagram, that was a big one.
I'll be back, but I'm not on there right now, . And so just feeling that like raw vulnerability of, like I said I feel like a naked baby right now. I'm like,
oof, what how in like, how much feeling there is in the world. But I'm excited to continue that journey, at least in for the near term future, to just have that like real aliveness feeling of not masking and not disassociating and not numbing and
to see where that goes.
It's been very uncomfortable and [00:58:00] unnerving so far, but I am very much, I think that's what I'm most excited about because I had
that revelation the other day, which was like, you've been on something for your entire life. So here we are trying to do the human thing.
Lana Pribic: I love that.
Track 1: Yeah,
Lana Pribic: I love that. Thank you for sharing that.
Track 1: of course.
Lana Pribic: there anything else that you wanna leave our listeners with
Track 1: From my, and then my lawyer answer. I would say I am,
I'm hopeful for California, that California Senate Bill 58 makes it out of the suspense file and goes to the
assembly floor. 'cause I think that would be incredible. And I'm excited for the implementation of Colorado and just really this whole new world that we're creating.
We're starting to really get steam and what this movement looks like. So that's my professional answer. But yeah, ask questions, be curious. Think about it. This is your one time in this space suit as this incarnation. So at least try to like, get as much knowledge and experience as you can during [00:59:00] this lifetime, whether good or bad, it's all part of it.
Yeah. And always happy to talk.
Lana Pribic: It's all part of it.
Track 1: Feldman legal advisors if you'd like any legal advice. So yeah,
reach us there.
Lana Pribic: And you have an email that I'll link in the show notes. Where else can people find you or
Track 1: Sure. So on Instagram, I'm the dot courtney dot era, and that will be coming back soon and LinkedIn or through feldman legal advisors.com. So that's my law firm
and I'm always happy to answer questions or talk about experiences And yeah. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you for the work that you do and your journey.
It's been, it is been so awesome
to follow your psychedelic
experiences as well.
I look forward to
Lana Pribic: Courtney
Track 1: the season in two years from now. Who knows where we'll be
Lana Pribic: right? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming back, for dropping back in and yeah, keep doing what you're doing.
Track 1: Awesome.
Lana Pribic: We love you so
Track 1: You
Lana Pribic: See ya, [01:00:00] Thank.
Track 1: love you too. I'll see you soon.
