057 | Moving Slowly Through Psychedelic Integration & Devotion to the Medicine Path
“Devotion is the light that is guiding you forward. Discipline is like laying the bricks down, brick by brick, to get there.”
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Returning guest Ruby Fremon (episode 29) has gone through 2 more traditional Shipibo dietas in the Amazon with master plant teachers Ayahuasca and Ayahuma.
As Ruby has ventured deeper on her path with Grandmother Ayahuasca, her understanding of devotion, the integration process, and intention setting has deepened as well. We drop in together to explore the nuances that give listeners pro-level tips for navigating the medicine journey.
Topics covered in this episode:
Ruby’s experience dieting master plant Ayahuma and Ayahuasca
What its like to diet Amazonian master plants in the jungle of Peru
Navigating the nature of duality (good and evil) in humanity
The importance moving slowly during psychedelic integration
How to create space for the integration process
Devotion versus discipline on the medicine path
Leaning into the healing journey even when its difficult or “taking too long”
How expectations and attachment to outcomes limits the medicine journey
Intentions versus expectations with psychedelics
“I have learned that integration is every moment of every day, every moment of every night. It’s in my dreams, it’s in my waking state. It’s all the time.”
LISTEN
“We’re taught to have expectations and to hold expectations. And then we go through this deprogramming with the plants, and start to learn, because the plants will show us how these expectations are holding us back.”
Episode Links:
Bringers of the Dawn [book}
Potent Leadership [Ruby's book]
Where to find Ruby Fremon:
About Ruby Fremon
Ruby Fremon is a gifted Seer, transformational Guide, Kambô Practitioner, speaker, and author of “Potent Leadership.” She has helped thousands of leaders gain the courage to quit performing, uncover their potency, and lead their lives with integrity and intimacy.
An expert on personal growth and deep inner-work, Ruby is the host of top-rated podcast “Potent Truth” and has appeared in over 100 publications and podcasts. She works with her clients in ceremonial settings, one on one, or in group settings at her live retreats and in her group offering, Potent Leaders.
Known for her big heart, no-bullshit approach, and shamanic gifts, Ruby’s work bridges the gap between practicality and spirituality, offering leaders an opportunity to create true inner-expansion and optimized healing.
Her favorite topics to speak on include potent leadership, plant medicine, and the inner-work, which have landed her on stages around the world. Ruby sees herself as an advocate for humanity, and uses her online presence to encourage her community to question the narrative, and cultivate true sovereignty of mind, body, and spirit. She currently lives in Austin, Texas, with her husband and their dogs, Luke and Spirit.
Looking for a professional coach to support you on your psychedelic path?
Look no further! Along with being the host of the Modern Psychedelics Podcast, Lana is a 3x certified professional coach who works with people on the psychedelic path.
Episode Transcript
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Lana: I am here with Ruby Fremon and it's been almost exactly a year since we last spoke, . Welcome back, Ruby.
Ruby: Thank you so much for having me back. And I didn't realize it had been almost a year.
Lana: Yeah, the last episode was released April 15th, 2022. When it's April 7th,
Ruby: that was like right before my dieta, my May dieta.
And since then I've, I like, since that conversation, I've gone back to the jungle twice for two more deta. So,
Lana: That's amazing. Well, I actually wanna start there. First of all, can you actually just briefly reintroduce yourself to the audience, and then I wanna hear some updates about your medicine work.
Ruby: Yeah. My name is Ruby Freeman. I'm a transformational guide for leaders who are really seeking to deepen their presence, [00:01:00] deepen their work, and lead with integrity. I'm also a huge advocate for the plant medicine space, and I see it as a mission to bring more reverence into plant medicine so that we can begin to sit with and serve these sacred medicines with the reverence that they deserve.
Lana: Yeah, and we spoke a lot about reverence and what that means in episode 29, and maybe we'll touch on it again cuz as you know, our understanding of these concepts, like reverence, devotion, integration, just deepens and changes over time as we deepen on the path. So we'll definitely get into that. So you've been on, like you said, two trips to the jungle since we last spoke.
Can you tell us what called you to these experiences this time?
Ruby: Yeah, my dieta in May of 2022. I mean, I had planned to go back. It had been, I [00:02:00] hadn't been back since 2019, was my last diet. And Peru had shut down for a really long time. So it just felt like it was time to go back. And, uh, when I was planning my return, I had al already decided that I wanted to diet Noya Rao.
And my first dieta, I had dieted, Bobinsana and Noya Rao together as prescribed by my maestro. But this time I really wanted to work with Noy a on its own. However, as. Started to come closer. I started to have visions of another tree that I had met and seen in the jungle on my last trip, and that was Ayahuma.
Ayahuma is an advanced shamonic tree that is only prescribed to advanced dieteros . And so I thought, okay, well, I don't think this is for me, but she kept coming in louder and louder. In the [00:03:00] moment that I landed in Peru, it was very obvious that she was calling me in. So instead of Noua ended up sitting with Ayahuma with permission from my maestro, who is actually an Ayahuma Maestro.
That's one of his, he, he's a maestro of the large trees of the big trees. And Ayahuma is a very, very large tree. It's a very shamanic tree. It, it supports with psychic vision. Energetic and psychic protection boundaries. She's very, very good at helping you instill psychic energetic boundaries. Some people describe her as extremely strict.
She also brings all of your shadows up to the surface, so a lot of people have a hard time with her, which is why they only prescribe her to advance deiteros. I felt like I didn't have. As hard of a time with the shadowy aspects of her when [00:04:00] I was there in May. But she was definitely putting me to the test with all my boundaries.
She took away a lot of things like I couldn't smoke mapacho because quite frankly, the smell of tobacco would make me vomit. I couldn't sit with hapé because the tobacco would make me vomit. The smell of the fruit trees around my tombo would make me vomit. Like she heightened my senses so much that all of these things that I would use, even Agua de Floridita, all these things that I would use for protection, I couldn't.
And so I'd sit in ceremony and go through these really intense experiences and I didn't have my external tools to help protect me. And there was even, you know, someone with an entity in the space that I could see that they were trying to place onto me. And normally I would reach for my tobacco and all my things and I couldn't.
And so I [00:05:00] immediately had to learn to enforce my own energetic and psychic boundaries. And at first I didn't understand why she was doing this to me. Like, why can't I just use tobacco? Why can't I just smoked Ma pacho? I understood it about halfway through the diet that she was really teaching me to, to cultivate those boundaries from within.
So it was a more strict experience for me in May, but it was a beautiful experience. I really, really loved her. Now, typically with Ima diets, it's 30 days minimum, but I had permission for my master to do 14 days. So when I decided to return in November, it was a very unplanned trip. but I had experienced a lot of trAyahuma that summer and I really just wanted to go somewhere I could be held.
So I went back to the jungle and I decided to continue my journey with Ayahuma to complete a 30 day diet. And it was interesting cuz she was [00:06:00] so different that, that time she was, uh, gentler, yet still firm. So my senses were not super heightened. I could work with tobacco, I could work with you know, all, all my perfumes.
And, uh, she took me to this different place where I was working deeper with Ayahuasca than I ever had. And at this point I've, I've sat with her over 40 times, but I have never gone as deep as I have gone in every single ceremony that I was there for in November. That was seven ceremonies. Never gone that deep with the medicine.
And I, I think I was able to go super deep for a few reasons. One, I was again, like I experienced a huge trAyahuma, like a big T trAyahuma. And so I was really raw and just, what's the word? Like I had no [00:07:00] guard up, none whatsoever. I was just completely rock. I felt like I was going back into the jungle naked and I was just like, take me.
So that I, I feel is the biggest reason I was able to go so deep. And it felt like a Yuma was testing me in a different way. Like the first diet, she was like, okay, let's see if you can get your energetic and psychic boundaries up without the use of in external tools to protect yourself. And then when I went returned, she was like, okay, let's see what you.
So it was a really different experience. I opened my voice in a very, very different way, and as I mentioned, every ceremony I went deeper and deeper. And the final ceremony, the last ceremony, my closing. So when you close a diet, your maestro, maestro will do a closing archana where they close it with a prayer and then they give you a protection so that you can leave and, and you feel closed off.
That night [00:08:00] I took a cup and it seemed to be about the same size cup I had been drinking that entire two weeks. The medicine was a little stronger, but as soon as I drank her, I was like, oh, something's different. And she just took. And I've never, in my life, like I have always danced between the realms, between the shadowlands and the here land is what I call it.
And I've always had a fear of going straight into the shadowlands, beyond the veil because I, I would fear that I would never return. So I've always just like danced tiptoed in and out. But this ceremony, she was like, that's where we're going. We're going deep into the Shadowland. And she took me there and I lost my vision.
I couldn't see. Andibo said, it's already dark. We don't use candles, but she took away [00:09:00] my vision. And so everything was just pitch black. All I could. Would be maybe like glimpses of my hands or my legs. Cause I was sitting up but I couldn't see. And at some point, and then the rest of the room, like the sound was really muffled.
It sounded really, really far away, really distant. Like I was really in the shadowlands and I was so scared cuz I, I didn't, this is the land of, of death. This is the land of all the entities, all the evil. And at some point I heard my name and they had been saying my name for a while cuz my Maro was looking for me in the dark so he could chant to me.
And as soon as I heard my name, I was like, AKI Aki. And then he comes in front of me and I feel his presence, but I still don't see anything. Then he starts chanting and I can see him. So now I can see him, I can see parts of my hands and my legs, but the rest of the room is black. And he's doing his [00:10:00] closing archana.
And as he's chanting to me, I start getting really hot, like absurdly hot, like I'm going to die hot. And my heart is racing almost like as if I'm on Kambo and I literally feel like I'm dying. I have never felt like I, I am physically dying. I felt spiritual deaths before, but like physically dying in ceremony with my maestro right in front of me chanting to me.
And after he finished the closing Archana, all of a sudden like me and him, almost like flip places. It was really weird. Like I was facing the center of the room and he was in the center of the room and all of a sudden he was on my mat and I was in the center of the room. And he starts a whole new chant.
And again, I'm still blind, but then this chant, he is cleaning something out of me and. I [00:11:00] start to feel incredibly nauseous and then I start to purge. And I'm not someone who typically purges every ceremony I purge, maybe three out of 10 ceremonies. And this ceremony I purged more than I ever have. And probably all of my ceremonies put together, like all of them.
I've never purged this much in my life. And it wasn't just energetic purge, it was like stuff was coming out of me. I, again, couldn't see cuz So I didn't know if I was purging in my bucket. I, I was just praying that I was,, and the purge is coming, kept coming out and it felt really guttural. Like there was something he was excavating from deep within that was from this lifetime and other lifetimes.
It was surreal. And he keeps chanting for what feels like forever. And the chanting really just feels like this. Cleaning, cleaning, cleaning. And I'm purging, purging, purging, like hoping that at some point this is going to stop. And then he reaches the, the [00:12:00] finale of his ecos with me and he pulls out his ma pacho and he starts soap lying me with, uh, cleaning me with mapacho.
And as the mapacho smoke is blowing into my face and on my crown, I start to gain some of my peripheral vision. I start to be able to see and hear the room again. And I look at him and he looks at me and he just like cushy ik, which means like, strong woman. And then he laughs and I was just like, oh my God.
I just, I feel like you just did an exorcism, like for real. It was such an intense experience and it was so deep. And it was so necessary because again, what I was going through and navigating was you know, the trAyahuma involved a lot of, uh, evil in this world. And I was being [00:13:00] targeted by a lot of people.
And so I had a lot of darts on me and a lot of just a lot of other people's energy. And it felt like he cleaned that out. But he also cleaned out past lifetimes. Like there was just something going on there. And I remember waking up the next day and I felt so much lighter and I also felt ready to go home.
Like I was like, okay, I feel complete. That was good. Two weeks I'm ready to go home. But I will say Ayahuma taught me so much about energetic psychic boundaries. She taught me so much about my psychic gifts. It's like she reinforced the necessity. For me to lean on myself for protection and yeah, for protection and boundaries instead of always reaching for external things.
And she also reminded me of the importance of using discernment in my life to trust [00:14:00] myself and trust my knowing because I do know. There's so much that came out of those two diets last year that I've devoted this entire year to integration. I'll be sitting with grandmother again, but I'm not doing any diets, any long time diets because there's just this real innate need to integrate everything that I experienced last year.
Lana: Mm-hmm. Wow. The deeper it gets, the deeper it gets. It sounds like you went deep.
Ruby: I, I mean, I was straight up on in the other side, and I'm so grateful for that experience, as scary as it was, because that was the place that I was most scared of going
with her. But what she showed me was that I can navigate into the depths of the darkest realms and places and still return, [00:15:00] because there's always, we hold duality within us, so there's always light and dark within us.
So as long as I have that light in me, I can make my way out, which just helped me a lot, both with the current trAyahuma that I was navigating, reminding me that I will come through this, and also just in life is like no matter what, I have that duality in me. You know, I can go to the deepest depths of anything and still return because I am my center.
Lana: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's amazing. I am also very curious about Ayahuma. Now, is this a psychoactive as well, and how are you working with it? Are you taking. In Ayahuasca ceremony or every other day, how does that work?
Ruby: Yeah. So, we talked a bit about the shipibo master plant diets in the last episode, and it works the same for any plant or tree. So the minimum for a shipibo master plant dieta is 10 days, and that's only. [00:16:00] Plants or trees. Most of the trees require longer amounts of time. So people will diet anywhere from like two weeks to like a year and spend that long in the jungle.
You're drinking ayahuasca every other night, and then depending on how long your diet is, you're gonna drink your master plant or tree as a tea on the off nights. So when I am there for two weeks, I will have three cups of tea because ba, you're not having it every other night for the remainder of your diet because all you need is for that trigger, that plant to root in you and then it grows.
So the first The first half of my journey is when I was drinking the tea every other night. So three cups on three different nights, and that's enough for that tree to be planted in me. So with the two diets combined, I had six cups of the tree. Now people who sit for, for example, like a month, they'll drink four cups of the tea.[00:17:00]
Lana: Mm-hmm.
Ruby: Yeah. And when I say tea, it's not a tea, it's, it's really the master plant or master tree. Suspended in, insanely strong alcohol. Uh, and they suspended in that and they let it, uh, not ferment, but it distills in the alcohol for. Certain amount of time.
And with the trees and the plants, it's either like the bark or a combination of the bark, the flower, it just depends on which tree and which plant it is. It uses different parts of the trees and plants and not all of the trees and plants are psychoactive. Only some of them are. But what happens is when you go to drink ayahuasca, it helps to activate the master plant or tree within you.
So then you start to experience ayahuasca. The way, this is how I describe it, you start to experience ayahuasca through the lens of that tree, your
plant.
Lana: Interesting. So do you think that [00:18:00] that's why it was just so much deeper for you because Ayahuma is such a master teacher.
Ruby: I think so. I, and I think she was just really testing me, but also showing me what's
possible.
Lana: Wow. Oh, that's such a beautiful story. Just from how you received the visuals and the calls to work with it, and then actually working with it and then receiving such a deep lesson around energetic boundaries, coming from within and not having to rely on anything other than what is within you to create that safety
Ruby: Mm-hmm.
Lana: That's really beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.
Ruby: and it's one of those things that I didn't realize at the time, you know, that's like part of the integration process of like, then you get to sit and unpack like, okay,
Lana: Mm-hmm.
Ruby: actually took place? What happened?
Lana: Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned duality. What are you [00:19:00] learning about? Yeah. The nature of duality and how that works on this human existence. I think in psychedelic circles and in spiritual spaces, especially if you're like following kind of new earth spirituality or new age spirituality, it's all about ascension and the light and the high frequencies and all of that stuff.
And when I came back from my recent Iboga ceremonies, I got a very powerful teaching on duality and how it's all part of this human existence. And it was so grounding and beautiful. I'm curious to hear from you, what are you learning about duality and how it plays out for us as human beings?
Ruby: Yeah, it's so interesting because when I first started on this path, like of spirit of, of this form of [00:20:00] spirituality and personal development, This is like, I'm, I'm going back to 20 God, 2012. I was first introduced to Gabby Bernstein and she's all
Lana: Ah,
Ruby: a course of miracles. The light, you know, that space.
And for me at that time, that was exactly the medicine I needed. But then as I continued to grow through that space, I felt, uh, like something's off. Something's a little off here. And I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And then I realized, okay, this feels like it's bypassing a lot of th things that need to be seen, felt experienced.
So I started diving deeper into like my shadow work and, you know, the dark stuff. And I think my sobriety in 2014 really helped me go there because all of a sudden I'm sober. [00:21:00] I don't have any of my quote unquote tools to turn to. No more masking, no more hiding. I just have to feel everything. The rage, the grief, the anger, the sadness, the depression, all of it.
And so that introduced me to the duality of my emotions, you know, the, the emotions that are often perceived as bad and negative versus the emotions that are perceived as good, pleasant. And so that era of my sobriety introduced me to the duality of emotions. And I feel like that was when I really started entering into this space of duality. And then 2020 hit and I was like, whoa, shit. Like there's duality everywhere. I mean, actually let me rewind. 2018, I started sitting with plant medicine and I really started seeing duality in the spiritual space in the other realms because it's very obvious when you do any psychedelic, [00:22:00] there is like these darker shadowy realms and then these other more light realms, but they all exist in the psychedelic space.
They're all there. But 2020 is when I started to see it in this plane on a grander scale. I started to really recognize the duality, and there's this book, it was written in the seventies, it's called Bringers of the Dawn. Have you read that?
Lana: I have, yeah. Yeah. The Pleidian book.
Ruby: Oh my God. For anyone who hasn't
even if you haven't, like, even if you aren't into galactics, because I'm not, it's just a really profound book to read because it literally depicts what's going on in our world right now, and it depicts the battle between the light and the dark. Now, the thing that we have to remember, sure, there is a battle of light and dark, but this also shows that light and dark [00:23:00] exist,
Lana: Mm-hmm.
Ruby: right? So light and dark exists. It exists in all the other realms exists in this realm. It exists within us. It exists in everything, you know, everything. I will just say the whole year, 2022, the diets the trAyahuma, like all of it.
Really opened my eyes to the presence of evil, of darkness, of all of that shadowy nature in our world and in these spaces, and that we are not built to resist those places. We are actually built to navigate all those realms, and as Ayahuma showed me in November, I could navigate in and out of that realm.
Lana: Yeah.
Ruby: What I just need to remember is the duality within me and how to carry myself through it. I think that there's definitely a harmony that we get to create [00:24:00] in duality. You know, if the shadow overpowers the light, you know, we don't want the evil to overpower the the good, but we need both. This is just such as life.
This is my personal opinion. I know a lot of spiritual texts and teachers will say, no, this is literally like, we need to abolish the darkness. We're never gonna do that. I mean, it's like saying we're gonna get rid of the night sky,
Lana: Yeah,
Ruby: we're just not.
Lana: That's totally where I'm at right now too, with my understanding of, you know, Capital T truth and the nature of reality. It, it also became very clear to me after Iboga that yeah, like, does, does there even need to be this, this battle? Right? It's more about, yes, accessing those tools within ourselves to move through all of life's experience, the light and the dark, but [00:25:00] it's the, you said the harmony within duality that actually creates the whole, the unity, the oneness, right?
We can't have that oneness, that wholeness without both. It's just not what this reality is. Maybe in the fifth dimension, it's just love and light, but we don't live there, do we?
Ruby: No, you know, life happens here and we really do need both to be able to anchor into this reality.
Lana: Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. So cool. Let's go back to integration.
Ruby: Mm-hmm.
Lana: What has that been like for you after these two very powerful experiences in 2022?
Ruby: It's been a lot. It's been a, I mean, first of all, I had taken like eight months off my business, uh, due to a trAyahuma and then restarted my business this [00:26:00] January. Yet I've been moving a lot slower than I am used to, even in the slowing down that I've been experiencing since first meeting plant medicine.
Cause I've Dr. Like slowed down so much now it's like moving at a completely different pace so that I can ensure that every step I am taking, every choice that I am making every decision, every interaction is coming from a place of alignment that I, I am so moving slowly so that I can continue to check in with my inner voice to check in with what feels right for me.
And I feel that that's a huge part of integration. You know, integration. It's not just. The, like, what happens in ceremony is like someone taking a box of puzzle, uh, puzzle box and emptying all the pieces on the ground. That's what happens in [00:27:00] ceremony. And so you can see all these pieces, you can see what's on all these pieces, but the pieces aren't together.
Integration is what puts the puzzle together. However, with that being said, the puzzle doesn't just happen to float together. Like you have to take the pieces and put them together. And, and so as you do that, you start to connect more and more dots. And so things that didn't make sense in ceremony because it's not like I came outta ceremony.
I was like, oh, this is what she was teaching me. No, it takes a while to connect those pieces and you just start to connect the pieces one by one. And that's where I'm at. And the puzzle isn't whole. I feel like my puzzle is literally like maybe like a 20th
Lana: Mm-hmm.
Ruby: and it's gonna take the remainder of this year to put it together.
But I also really, you know, from all my experience with plant medicine, I've learned that moving slower is better for me. And, and typically for anyone, because if you're in a rush, you're gonna stick the wrong [00:28:00] pieces together and have a puzzle that is make any sense. And so I'm moving really slowly, very carefully, very intentionally ensuring that again, everything I'm doing is in alignment with how I feel right now.
I feel like a big part of this integration has also been, uh, the closing of a very, very, very long cycle of death. I feel like I've been in a season cycle of death since 2018. That's something people won't tell you. They think, they tell you that you die and you become reborn and you think it's gonna happen.
Like in one ceremony, my death took me four years, and I feel like I'm finally just coming out of the death and into rebirth and. With rebirth, it's not that everything is clear, it's actually very confusing, very unclear, because I've been completely stripped of all identities of any sense of what I once knew.
And now I'm starting fresh from scratch in the unknown with this puzzle. And it's almost like I can't even see the [00:29:00] image that this puzzle is supposed to make. I'm just trying to put the pieces together. So that's another intention with moving slow. You know, I just don't, I don't wanna do this chapter in and start it off from a place of misalignment, you know, like I really want to honor myself and my growth and all the work that I've done by moving slowly and intentionally.
Lana: I love what you said about , I don't really know what it's gonna look like when I finish this puzzle. And I think that's actually where a lot of people get caught up in the integration process. Rushing through it and maybe not giving space for the slowness and intentionality, but also this attachment to what the puzzle is supposed to look like when we put it together.
And I think part of this work is trusting that the puzzle is coming together, even though you're not sure what it might look like, and trusting that even if it looks like something totally different than what you had in your mind. [00:30:00] That it's just as valid and that it's going to take you to a place that is, best for you.
Ruby: I, I feel like that's one of the myths in the plant medicine space. This might turn into a rant. It's like, people talk about that. You hear about all these influencers talking about their plant medicine experiences, right?
And they're like, oh, I went into this experience and it totally changed my life, and I made all these choices, and now I'm, I'm this rich, famous fucking guru, you know? That's not, like, that's not typical, and that's not usually how it works.
Lana: Of the time
Ruby: right. And even so, you're just hearing their, their narrative of what happened and you're, you're like, I can assure you, there's so much more that took place behind the scenes or is taking place and that's not the whole truth. And so people have this expectation with plant medicine.
They go in and they're like, okay, I wanna get clarity on my business, or I wanna get clarity on my marriage. I wanna get clarity on my relationship, [00:31:00] on my life, whatever it is, I just want the fucking clarity. So they go in and what you often get isn't clarity. I mean, some she'll deliver messages for sure.
But it's almost like it, it's like exactly what I described. Like she'll take the puzzle of your life and throw it on the ground and let you see all the pieces. And then it's up to you to put those pieces together. But you have to do the work. And it's best to do that work without an expectation. You know, this is what I've learned.
I can have deep intentions going into ceremony, and I always focus on that, like, this is my intention, but I make sure that the intentions aren't attached to an expectation. Because once you go in with an expectation, this is when the work becomes super cloudy because now you're, you're projecting your own beliefs, judgments upon like what she's trying to communicate to you.
And so for me, no, And
You're You're not trusting yourself
either, right? And so for [00:32:00] me, like I, I have been down this road so many times with her that, and again, I feel like because of where I was at emotionally, physically, and mentally with the trAyahuma and I was literally just super raw, super naked, it was easier for me to get to this place cuz I'm generally a little more guarded.
And she was able to take me there. And I went there without any expectations. Like I, I really, my intention was just help me see what I'm not seeing. Help me feel what I'm not feeling. Like tell me what I'm not hearing. Just, just illuminate
what needs to be illuminated. And then the only prayer was to please clean me.
Cuz I just knew that I was holding a lot that wasn't mine to hold. But I didn't say, Hey, gimme clarity on my life. Hey, gimme clarity on this. Hey, tell me what's going on. I didn't say any of that. I didn't direct her in any way.
Lana: Yeah.
Ruby: And so [00:33:00] now as I'm rebuilding, it's so interesting cuz even as an entrepreneur, uh, I've been an a, an entrepreneur for like 18 years and in this business since tw this specific business since 2014.
And I've always had a. I've always had a plan, like friends will, peers will come to me to help them create plans for their businesses. I am that person that by Nove, uh, November, December of a year, I already have my whole next year planned and mapped out. I have no fucking plan. And it's really freeing and really scary,
you know, But thank you.
But it also feels like this is where the magic of the integration is taking place because if I had a plan, I would resist the integration. I would resist the dots that are being connected, cuz those might ruin my plans. But right now I don't have any plans. So I'm just going with the flow and I think that's a really beautiful place to be.
And I also feel like that's one of the biggest [00:34:00] teachings that plant medicine offers us is to move at an organic pace.
To move like Earth, you know, to move like Pache Mama. A tree doesn't grow with any expectations whatsoever.
Lana: Mm-hmm.
Ruby: She just grows.
Lana: Yeah. I've, I have chills. Yeah. I deeply feel that. I've deeply felt that, bless these plants for teaching us how to live and returning our nervous system, our bodies, our mind back to that, that natural flow with life, which is. It's just a lot slower than we've been taught.
Ruby: Mm-hmm.
Lana: much medicine in that slowness.
Ruby: Yeah.
Lana: Like you said, slowing down is intentional. It's aligned. And you also mentioned in one of your podcast episodes, I, I love a good nature metaphor. It's always my go-to with my coaching clients. Like there's [00:35:00] Al Yeah, there's always a, like it has all the answers. And you said something that really blew my mind.
You said just like the roots of a tree or like a, the roots of a plant need room to expand and you need to repot them like we are the same way. We also need space to grow. And giving ourselves space, especially during integration, is so important. So I'm wondering for people listening, for someone.
Who, someone like yourself who has gone through the process of integration many, many times, you've been doing this for a decade or so, how do you create space for yourself? For Yeah. A powerful plant medicine, ayahuasca experience to flourish.
Ruby: Yeah. First and foremost, by creating spaciousness in my schedule.
So could I be working with more clients at this time? [00:36:00] A hundred percent. I mean, normally this time of year I'm running my group program and I opted not to because I really just needed some space. So creating spaciousness within my schedule and then within my life by saying no to a lot of things and a lot of people, I even just had someone nice come into my dms and genuinely just wanna connect.
And I was like, at this time it's a no. Like, it's just, it's a no. To honor the space that I do have. I think a lot of people have this misconception of how it needs to look like you need to, the mourning rituals need to look a certain way. There needs to be this like planned set space for things. And as a double Virgo, I get it.
I like to have things feel routine, but I feel like the more routine I try and instill in my integration [00:37:00] process, the more I start to lean into the, the realm of expectations. And so now I have learned that the integration doesn't just happen in like a. A block of time in my day that I've blocked off for morning rituals.
No, the integration is every moment of every day, every moment of every night. It's in my dreams, it's in my waking state. It's all the time. And to honor it as such. And so wherever I can create space, create space between client sessions, don't book things back to back, don't book anything back to back, quite frankly, just offer myself space and don't worry about needing to fill that space.
Just allowing for whatever wants to come through to come through in, in those moments of spaciousness. So that also looks like a lot of solitude. And if there is connection, it's connecting with people [00:38:00] who I can really go deep with because I do find it beneficial sometimes to talk things through. Verbal integration does help me. But to do that with the right people, people who aren't gonna project their beliefs, but people who will just hear and hold space for what you have to say, not interfere with your process.
Lana: Mm-hmm.
Ruby: that also means like if you're working with coaches or anyone at that time of integration to make sure you're working with people who don't interfere with your process or disrupt your process, but instead hold space for it without interference.
So what that looks like is, are people who listen without feeling like they need to interject people who really hear what you have to say and maybe reiterate what you have to say so that you can hear it. But that's really important. I feel, uh, I think that integration without the right people around you can feel a little lonely and a little tough.
Cuz sometimes we [00:39:00] just, I'm not gonna say sometimes, actually, I'm gonna say we need to be witnessed. That because that is something I have discovered through my integration processes is that it is important to feel witnessed through that integration. But again, that can only happen with the right people.
I don't know if you experienced that,
Lana: Mm-hmm.
Ruby: it's just something that I has become very apparent to me in these last eight months.
Lana: Mm-hmm. Being in a place where you are like willing to claim that spaciousness for yourself.
Ruby: Mm-hmm.
Lana: Takes a lot of work and it's a testament to how much work you have done on your own personal journey to get to a place where you actually are very confident and comfortable to say no to a client, to create space in your schedule, to, you know, not let the mind, uh, talk you into running a group program when [00:40:00] that's not actually what's best for you.
What are some of the core beliefs that you now carry, which I'm sure you didn't always carry cuz it takes work to get to that place. But what are some of those core beliefs that you now have about yourself, about your business, about, you know, life that really allows you to live in that place of spaciousness and to like really claim that spaciousness.
Ruby: Mm. That self-trust is super important. Trust in self and also trust in the divine plan. And I don't like saying only trust in the divine plan because I think that can lead to a lot of bypassing bullshit. You have to trust yourself and so I trust myself enough to create spaciousness because I trust myself enough to know that I'll be okay, you know,
leaning into the plants for strength, even when you're not sitting in ceremony, is really, really potent. So anytime I'm feeling, you know, like a less than vibrant day or like feeling [00:41:00] down or like something's really bothering me to just take a moment to reconnect with the plants, remembering that they're still there.
And that's something that I've really learned to actively do a lot. Other things are, are just that spaciousness really allows me to expand myself. It's like the potted plant analogy. If we don't offer ourselves the spaciousness, it's like trying to plant yourself in this really tiny pot.
But if I plant myself outside with a lot of spaciousness, I have more room to grow. And that feels more free, it feels more expansive. I can go deeper. I can go wider, I can grow taller. So that's how I think about spaciousness now. Whereas before, spaciousness scared the fuck outta me.
Lana: Right.
Ruby: and then that integration is really it.
It is the ceremony. [00:42:00] The ceremony in the Maloka. What happens in the maloka is really just like the initiation.
The true ceremony is the integration.
Lana: A ho. Yeah.
Ruby: Mm-hmm.
Lana: Yeah. That's where, that's where it all happens. Beautiful. Thank you. Let's get into, devotion.
Ruby: Mm.
Lana: This word that that's what made me wanna invite you back on to the show, to really have a juicy conversation about devotion on the medicine path. Something that I have also been contemplating for years, what that even means.
So I'm so excited to hear your thoughts on it. First of all, how would you define devotion?
Ruby: So I'm gonna give a little context first cuz I think this will make more sense. Devotion was something I really started talking about around 2020 because I was so tired of people talking about discipline. , especially as someone who anchored into discipline her entire life, very Type A was raised to be very [00:43:00] disciplined.
I've accomplished a lot in my life through discipline. Don't get me wrong, I do have, uh, an appreciation for discipline. However, discipline without devotion really is just pushing. It's just hustling. There's no purpose. There's no intention. It's an attachment to an outcome or an expectation. Devotion is a very intentional way of operating through life.
It's about cultivating a deep understanding of what is truly meaningful to you. What is it that you truly desire and not what you think you should desire? And then devoting yourself to that. See, most people are unconsciously devoted to things that they don't want, uh, like their fears. Which
is why they continue to make the same decisions.
They're unconsciously devoted to their old stories, to their old identity, or they're devoted to things that aren't actually in alignment for them. And then they wonder why it's hard to create discipline. [00:44:00] I feel like devotion is what creates very intentional discipline. Discipline that feels really, really good.
Because anyone on the plant medicine path, like truly on the path understands that there is a a level of discipline, especially when you start to diet. When you start to diet, I mean, all of a sudden you can't eat the foods that you used to eat. You don't, you can't have sex. You can't listen or watch media.
You are not on your digital devices. You're in solitude a lot. There's a lot of rules. There's a lot of discipline, and when you sit in more traditional. Lineages, like Shipibo specifically is pretty strict. You know, you're, you're taught to sit up for most of the ceremony. That's what they encourage you to do is sit up, don't lay down.
I'm not saying that I never lay down, I do lay down, but, you know, that's what you're taught. It's just, it's a path that requires discipline. But when you're doing it from a place of discipline, it's not gonna feel good. So, for me, I chose [00:45:00] to devote myself to this path, and not with the intention to become a curandera or like a maestra, like, not with that intention at all.
Not with the intention to serve, but with the intention to continue deepening my relationship with these plants, with these teachers, with our, our Pacha mama.
Lana: Mm-hmm.
Ruby: And. This devotion is what creates this sense of discipline, which I know people see from like the outside. They, they look at me and they're like, oh, she's so disciplined.
Look at her on this detox journey and like how she can do this with ease. And it's like, it's not easy, but it is filled with ease because I know why I'm doing it. You know, I know why I'm here, I know why I'm making the choices that I make because this is what I'm devoted to. And when you're clear on what it is that you're devoted [00:46:00] to, that becomes your, your guiding light, all your choices, your decisions really just start to support that devotion. So, you know, with the, within the plant medicine space, I'm not doing this to one day serve her. I think that I, I don't know if I mentioned this on the other podcast, but if I had entered the space maybe 10 years earlier, for sure, I would consider. That because then I, I feel like I would be in a place in my life where I could dedicate spending months and months at a time in the jungle and really apprenticing with her.
But I'm in a different place in my life right now. So for me, it's just about deepening my relationship and expanding my knowledge and really finding ways to serve her, not by serving her, but serving her by acting as a bridge to the work that she does.
Lana: Yeah. And as you're saying [00:47:00] that I, this is just downloading in me, devotion has this aspect of like being in service of to the thing that is also in service to you, whereas discipline doesn't have that. Right. It's more about like the relationship.
Ruby: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Discipline is like a
force,
Lana: what I want?
Ruby: right? Yeah. How do I get this? How do I achieve this expectation? This. is like really a conscious decision of like how you choose to walk your path.
Lana: Yeah, and something that you said on that in one of your podcast discipline is the container that holds what you are devoted to. I
Ruby: Mm-hmm.
Lana: Can you talk a little bit about that? Because we need both, right? We do need both, but we're overly hyper-focused on discipline in our Western society.
Ruby: Yeah.
And then, and then the spiritual space, it's almost like they're overly hyper, hyper-focused on devotion. And it's like [00:48:00] you need both, it's like what I say about the plants. You can't expect the plants to do the work for you. They're gonna highlight things and illuminate things, but then you have to go to work so you can pray.
You know, I pray you can sit in silence, you can connect with your guides, your teachers, and all things, but they're not gonna do the work for you. Right. They're gonna be there to support you. So the devotion needs the discipline to hold it. And that's what you get to create. But again, when you're doing it from a place of really clearly understanding that which you're devoted to, a really easy example that people seem to relate to is like, I am undeniably devoted to my wellbeing and my health, and I have been for 20 years.
This is why I live the lifestyle that I live. This is why I eat the foods that I eat. This is why I do the things that I do. This is why most of my money goes towards my health and my wellbeing. But it's a super easy choice for me to make because I know I'm very clear. This is what I'm devoted to. It's that like some, I know [00:49:00] musicians are really deeply devoted to their music and their lifestyle reflects that devoted to your purpose.
Your lifestyle will reflect that devoted to your work, your lifestyle will reflect that because you'll create the discipline to hold that devotion.
Lana: So when we look at being on the medicine path, Where does discipline come in, and where does devotion come in?
Ruby: Devotion is the, the light that is guiding you forward.
And discipline is like laying the bricks down, brick bribe, brick to get there.
Lana: Ooh,
Ruby: Yeah.
Lana: I love that. That's
Ruby: you know, in practical terms, like for me it's like how can I continue to deepen my work with these sacred medicines in a way that really honors that guiding light,
Lana: Mm
Ruby: you know, so that I'm not [00:50:00] just sitting in ceremony after ceremony doing the same thing, but I'm learning how to work with her in different ways.
I'm expanding my knowledge of her. I'm, I'm meeting my edges with.
Lana: Yeah. Yeah. And that's why we. We don't say we use ayahuasca like we use alcohol, right? We say we work with ayahuasca cuz it's that, it is that relationship. What does it mean to you to be devoted to ayahuasca? The medicine path?
Ruby: Hmm. It's always felt like, like I really see her as my grandmother, and it's, it just feels like that, that that familial sense of devotion, like being devoted to family and that is shown through my love for her, through my reverence for her, through my respect for her, through my humilty. Her and to continue honoring her in those ways with reverence, with [00:51:00] respect, with humility, and that when I do sit with her, that I do so in a, you know, with a sense of discipline, you know, that I'm not just going in there to abuse the medicine. That there is a sense of discipline as the container for this devotional practice.
Lana: Mm-hmm. Beautiful. So let's, let's shift gears and talk about the journey, the journey of it all. And I've referred to it a few times as like playing the long game with medicine. Another place where I see people new to the space get caught up is, yeah, again, that expectation, but specifically the expectation of like how long it should take, quote unquote it should take cuz what are we even really talking about it being and. Like really leaning into the work, [00:52:00] leaning into the path, even when it's really hard, even when it's not going the way you want it to be, even when it feels like it's never gonna end. Like, oh my gosh. I'm sure you can relate to that feeling of like, why am I even doing this? Like what is even happening I feel like giving up. I don't know if you've ever had that experience with medicine, but I certainly have. So what do you have to say around really embracing the journey? The long game of this.
Ruby: I think what we have to remember is that life itself is a journey, right? We begin the journey when we are born. And the journey doesn't necessarily complete when we die. It's just the beginning of another journey. And so to look at our journey, our relationship with plant medicine as that, as the journey, we have these individual journeys that we sit in, but then they are all part of this bigger journey that we're always [00:53:00] growing.
We're always healing that every day that we are alive is another day to accumulate a new trauma or be retriggered, which means that the work continues, it's never ending. And that's not a bad thing. I've, I've had conversations, deep conversations about this with really close friends saying, well then, does that mean that you're never healed?
And it's like, but I don't look at like, I have removed the charge between healed and, and being on this journey. I don't look at it as healed and broken or healed or unhealed. I look at everything as healing. I am healing on this journey. My healing journey is, is here and it's something that I'm devoted to for the rest of my life.
I don't see, I don't have this like end goal cuz I also believe we can continue to optimize our healing. Just like we can continue to optimize ourselves. So to remove this charge that we place on the need for [00:54:00] beginning and an end and instead looking at everything as cyclical. Cuz everything in nature is cyclical and that the journey is cyclical.
You know, there's death in rebirth, but with, with there's death in birth. And with birth comes death. And with death comes birth. It's cyclical in nature. The journey is cyclical. There is no beginning, there is no end. There's like the point in which we enter where we decide to become devoted to that specific journey.
And then we're there and that's what it is. And. That's how I have chosen to look at it. And that doesn't mean that I am walking this journey with no intention. It's just that my intention isn't to complete the journey as if it's a video game. My intention is to be fully present on the journey and, to continue acquiring knowledge and tools and to continue integrating, to continue [00:55:00] growing to continue deepening and to continue deepening my connection to self and these plants.
Lana: So, so, so well said. Yes. So well said. Have you ever heard of like the spiral path,
Ruby: Mm-hmm.
Lana: like it's cyclical, but like when you get back to the beginning, you're not. You're not the same person as when you started. Right. So it's this kind of spiral and yeah, that's, I remember like earlier on in my journey with plant medicine, when I had the realization that that's what this was, it was that cyclical spiral path feel like everything changed
Ruby: Mm-hmm.
Lana: allowed me to like really lean into this work in a new way
Ruby: Yeah. I think cuz our society wants us, uh, there's, it's so linear, but life is not linear. Like, once you start to look, ar like really open your eyes and look around there, there's nothing that is linear in life. Everything is cyclical.
Lana: When people have [00:56:00] expectations of maybe it being linear or maybe on how long it should take or what it should look like, whatever expectations bring into the plant medicine space, how do you see these expectations impacting people's experiences and outcomes With the plant medicine journey?
Ruby: There's an impact for sure.
Lana: Yeah.
Ruby: It's one of those things where you ha you actually have to experience the impact of that. It, it's almost like the deprogramming that we all go through when we start to work with plants. Cuz we've all been raised in this world with the society and these paradigms, or we're taught that things are super linear.
We're taught to, have expectations and to hold these expectations. And then we go through this deprogramming with the plants. And we start to learn because the plants will show us how these expectations are holding us back. I remember very early on [00:57:00] in my coaching career something that one of my, my all-time favorite mentors, he said to me, and it's so funny that this is coming up right now outta nowhere, but this is very early on in my career. , maybe two years into my career and I'm still really inspired by Gabby Bernstein and that whole space. And he's like, you know, what's your, what's your goal in, in the coaching world? And I said to him, I said, I wanna be as big as Gabby Bernstein. And he paused for a really long, awkward amount of time that had me taken aback.
And then he says to me very gently, He says, well, what if you could be bigger than Gabby Bernstein? And I was like, huh. And it wasn't, it wasn't that he said, I could be bigger than her. It was the fact [00:58:00] that he could present a different outcome that made me realize that my expectation was actually holding me back.
And I say that because that is what happens in the plant medicine space. You go in with all these expectations, and then these expectations go blown outta the water. And I see it every time I sit. I see it in every integration circle I've ever been a part of. There's always gonna be one, like at least one person who's gonna say, well, my ceremony sucked.
Like, here's what happened, here's what didn't happen. Right? And it's like, I can assure you something happened,
and I can assure you if you are right. Exactly, and if you allow yourself to just release the expectation and just to be with what is present, those puzzle pieces will start to come into vision and start to connect.
It is one of those things that every individual has to go through and they go through in their own unique way. For some people, it takes multiple [00:59:00] ceremonies before they can get to that deprogram place. And for others it's just like one ceremony and they're like, huh, wow. Okay, I see it.
Lana: And then things really start to change. When you can see that and you just relate to it in such a different way, you're open. I, I, I think you're, you're onto something cuz I, I have also thought about it as like, yeah. It is a rite of passage I think. It is something that the Western mind just has to go through on this path this illumination of how expectations hold us back and how it's not that they're not welcome in the plant medicine space, it's just that that's not how the plant medicine space operates at all. Right. Perhaps it is one rite of passage and initiation into the path to really come to realize that.
Ruby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I love that you used the word initiation.[01:00:00]
Lana: Mm-hmm.
Ruby: And for some, it's a really long initiation. And I say that because I am one of those,
like, it took me a while right? To like get it. But then once you start to, it, it, you can't unsee what you now see.
So what starts to become illuminated? It's like you literally can't ignore that anymore.
Lana: Yeah. I think one of the things that started happening to me after, after that rite of passage was I held my intentions much more lightly. You know, there's still, uh, such an importance in intention, but, you know, I had been around the ayahuasca block enough times to know that, like, yeah, hold your intention lightly.
Like, have an intention as respect to yourself and to the journey that you're going to take on, and like really put some thought into why you're doing this. Right. I think that's really the value of having an intention, hold it lightly and be willing to be, be taken, shown, guided to [01:01:00] wherever the grandmother wants to take you
Ruby: Yeah. Because she has her intentions too.
Lana: Exactly.
Yeah. Which is much. It's a much like higher bird's eye universal perspective than our
Ruby: Yeah. They're not, or little human intentions. Yes. And I will say like, intentions are important. When people say, oh, I'm, I'm just gonna go in and tell her to show me what she needs, show me. And I'm like, uh, like the reason I could go into my last dieta, like in that way was because of how far along my path I am.
I, cuz I still vividly remember my very first ceremony with her and I went in with that intention and I really wish I hadn't that, that ceremony experience. Mind you, it was with a group that Did not hold space very well. Uh, but I ended up with PTSD for quite a long time after that ceremony. She showed me too much.
Like I wasn't ready for it, but it's because I gave her [01:02:00] free reign at the very start of our relationship. So intentions are powerful, they're important, and to be open again. And I think this is the, like this is the difference between intentions and expectations though, right? Like intention is like, I intend to go to Disneyland, you know, but if we're driving and we see some cool places to stop, like we're gonna stop.
You know, an expectation is we're gonna drive straight to Disneyland.
Lana: Yeah.
Ruby: So that, that really is the difference. But to also know, like maybe when you're just starting out, don't tell her that she has complete control, cuz she's also still trying to get to know you. And there is a possibility that you can go too deep, too quickly.
And what I mean by that is like, you'll be taken, you'll be shown things that you're actually not ready to see. This is how we create trauma. Right. Too much, too fast, too soon. Intentions are really, really important. [01:03:00] But to hold them without expectation. I know that sounds like, as I'm saying the words, I'm like, I can see how this can be very confusing, but I'm hoping that that lands,
Lana: no, I think you always have really great metaphors. Uh, yeah, that Disney,
Ruby: I don't even know where Disney came from, but
it's uh
Lana: total sense cuz Yeah, cuz maybe we'll like make a stop along the way and realize oh wait, I don't actually wanna go to Disneyland, I wanna go to Six Flags or whatever.
Ruby: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you get
Lana: know. Yeah.
Ruby: Good. I'm happy. That made sense.
Lana: Yeah. No, that's so good. Well, I wanna start winding things down here. Is there anything else you wanna leave us with during such a, to use your word during such a potent time for you in this integration process? Anything that is on your heart that you wanna share with the audience?
Ruby: Yeah. And I, it is on integration because I think [01:04:00] integration isn't just part of plant medicine, right? It's in anything to honor the season of integration as much as you honor every other season. Cuz it is so crucial to your ability to grow, to expand, to anchor into, a stronger foundation of self.
Lana: And, and last question I have for you. What is your potent truth right now?
Ruby: Hmm, that the ceremony doesn't just end in the maloka. The true ceremony is the integration. It's how we then take what we learn and bring it into our lives.
Lana: Mm-hmm. Thank you, Ruby. I'm so happy that we caught you at such a, such a rich time during your process. It, it is so clear that you are moving through a huge integration initiation ceremony [01:05:00] process right now. And yeah, I'm so happy that we got to connect again. Tell the listeners how they can work with you, where they can find you.
Do you have anything coming up that you wanna share with us?
Ruby: Yeah. The best place to look for me is rubyfremon.com. I've also got a podcast called Potent Truth, a book called Potent Leadership. And then I'm on all social media at I am Ruby. And I am currently working with leaders in very intimate group setting called Potent Leaders, which is gonna start again in September with enrollment this summer.
But if you wanna apply early, you can, cuz the applications are up on my website. I also work one-on-one, but in a very limited number, and I do that in six month journeys. But I also offer guidance sessions for people who just wanna have a really short. Process with me and, uh, something called Catalyst, which is specifically for entrepreneurial leaders who are seeking to evolve their businesses.
So the [01:06:00] best way to really, if you wanna inquire working with me, with me, is head to my website or just DM me on social media.
Lana: Amazing. We'll have all of that linked in the show notes. Thanks so much for dropping in with us, Ruby.
Ruby: Thank you so much for having me again.
Lana: It was a pleasure.
