058 | Iboga Sustainability Issues: Building A Bridge Between Gabon, Africa & the West
“We have moved away from a community connection and a sense of oneness with nature. This has been going on for thousands and thousands of years since we left these forests originally. It’s amazing that there are still populations of people that have the original strands of all of our DNA and some of those people are in [Gabon].”
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Anyone who has worked with Iboga (or ibogaine) or is feeling the call will gain a lot of valuable information in this episode. It’s not secret that there are severe sustainability issues with this powerful medicine. Not only is the medicine (the Iboga tree) being threatened, but so is the cultural heritage underpinning it.
Blessings of the Forest (BOTF) is non-profit organization working on the ground with the Gabonese to preserve, research and share knowledge about the medicinal plants and indigenous traditions of the Gabonese forest people for the benefit of all of humanity. Their impact is beyond planting iboga trees: they are working with the Gabonese to define and uphold right relationship with Westerners who want to work with Iboga.
This is a beautiful episode full of nuanced information about Iboga, Bwiti and Gabon. I interviewed David Nassim, BOTF’s co-director, who was so generous in his sharing. He took us through how the Western World has put a huge strain on access to Iboga for the Gabonese, and offers solutions such as upholding the Nagoya protocol, Voacanga Africana as a sustainable ibogaine alternative, and more importantly, really listening to what the Gabonese want and need.
PRODUCTION NOTE: The last few minutes of David’s mic is lower quality, but hang in there for his parting words of wisdom.
Please donate to BOFT, with only 30 Euros you can sponsor an Iboga tree to be planted in Gabon. If you have worked with Iboga, it’s advised that you sponsor 3-5 trees.
Topics covered in this episode:
Iboga sustainability & supply line issues that inspired the formation of Blessings of the Forest
How the Western World has put a huge strain on access to Iboga for the Gabonese
Voacanga Africana as a sustainable ibogaine alternative
How Blessings of the Forest is working on the ground with the Gabonese
What the West can learn from the Bwiti way of living
The current process of defining what reciprocity looks like for the Gabonese
How to support BOTF, the Gabonese and Iboga sustainability
“We can’t protect and make sure the Iboga is kept in a particular way. This is something that the Gabonese have to do themselves. What we do is that we help them to form iboga farms where they are able to grow iboga, on their own lands where they own everything. ”
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Episode Links:
Where to find David Nassim & Blessings of The Forest:
About David Nassim
David Nassim is co-director and co-founder of Blessings of the Forest. He focuses on Indigenous rights advocacy associated with iboga and fundraising in the international arena. His background has been in Chinese medicine for over 20 years, culminating in consultancy and teaching with a focus in the energetics of self-healing response. He has a special interest in psychotropic plants, and raising awareness of Indigenous people’s deep instinctive understanding of their own herbal medicine heritage. He feels that reciprocity is a vital aproach to sustainable relationship and that Indigenous cultures must be consulted in the use of ancient medicinals for truely effective treatment. He feels we must accurately bridge Indgenious people's understanding to modern world issues, especially when shaping safe-practice.
Looking for a professional coach to support you on your psychedelic path?
Look no further! Along with being the host of the Modern Psychedelics Podcast, Lana is a 3x certified professional coach who works with people on the psychedelic path.
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Lana Pribic: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. I am here with David Nassim from Blessings of the Forest, and I could not be more excited to speak to him today. I have been intending and getting in touch with this beautiful organization for a while now and it's such an honor to have you here. Welcome, David.
David Nassim: Thank you very much for having me on your show and and for yes for being interested in Iboga sustainability. So yeah, happy to be here. Thank you.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, thank you. And before we hit record, we set a little bit of an intention for our conversation today and. I asked you what you would like to get out of this conversation, and you mentioned, it would be great to reach people who are interested in Iboga sustainability, but aren't aware of some of the nuances around it.
And to create more of that like reciprocal relationship between people who are using Iboga and actually giving back to Iboga.
So listeners listening, [00:01:00] that's our intention for this conversation, and I think it's a beautiful one.
I would love to hear a little bit about you, David. Can you introduce yourself to our audience and maybe touch on what led you to Iboga, share a little bit of your story and what this beautiful wood found in the jungle did for you, and how it changed your life.
David Nassim: I think that I came towards the medicine because I w I started off my training in Chinese medicine, I should say. Yeah I'm about 44 years old, approximately. But I started off my training in Chinese medicine for it's been about 23 years now.
I was involved in that for a very long time. And I recognized that I had a pattern associated with my work, which Really ended up me understanding was a kind of caretaker's syndrome, if you like, a kind of chronic stress syndrome, which I had picked up, I guess from my earlier life where [00:02:00] I was looking after one of my parents for all my life really.
So it became something of a sort of pattern to be in that caretaker's role. And it also became a kind of identity addiction identity, you could describe it. And I became very depressed associated with that. And so depression was the main thing that I went towards psychotropic medicine in order to try to find a resolution.
And in 2014, I found that connection and within a day or so of experiencing that that process I was able to see the pattern which had been with me all my life from a kind of pre-verbal place all the way through my life. And I was able to understand that this was, this is the identity that I had formed.
That was a huge process for going through that and letting go of a lot of ideas about myself and a lot of [00:03:00] I, grief really at , my childhood and various other aspects.
So that was my connection to Iboga, the experience was amazing, but it was really showing me something which was my blind spot that I couldn't see. And that was, coaxing me towards really looking at that and really trying to find freedom from that role which has taken me since that time, many years to feel into and change my life as a result.
Yeah, it, that was my process with Iboga.
Lana Pribic: Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. It's always nice to, yeah, to know who is behind the organization and like the stories that lead people to do such beautiful work like you guys do at Blessings of the Forest.
I think a lot of people can probably relate to the idea of having a powerful experience with a psychedelic plant and having those identities, [00:04:00] ideas of ourselves shattered.
And with that shattering, it allows us to step into, who we really are, who we want to be.
And so this was 2014 that you had this experience. And then what led to an interest in creating an organization like Blessings of the Forest?
David Nassim: as soon as I had that experience I recognized immediately how powerful Iboga was and, what that the medicine could do. And I also recognized that it I had that particular experience and I recognized very quickly that it really did require a sort of lead up and a sort of a place where you could come to terms with the changes.
So basically I, I knew that was the case and I was interested in what the traditional connection with the medicine was. What was it that the people that really had a fundamental understanding of this medicine what it was like, and where that sort of came from.
So I decided that I wanted to actually go to [00:05:00] Gabon and I wanted to be initiated in, in, into the Bwiti tradition to understand it more deeply and to get a sense of what it was.
Shortly after that I met Yann. And Yann was somebody who Yann , Guignon is a man who has spent huge proportion of his life, 15, 16 years in Gabon, living in Gabon for much of that time working with Gabonese people and and having a very deep connection to them.
And he understood the issues associated with the Iboga and I became very quickly interested and wanted to help to support him in his vision to create a Blessings of the Forest. So that was my connection with him.
And from that point we very gradually, it's a very gradual process that of, forming the connections that we did and, creating the Yeah the platform to be able to find a way [00:06:00] to, to introduce sustainability practices in the process of of iboga and working to really help the Gabonese to actually enforce the Nagoya protocol, which we will discuss a little bit later, I
Lana Pribic: yeah, totally. So it sounds like you and Yann came together, of course.
David Nassim: Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Through Iboga. It always works like that in the way that we meet people in the Plant me medicine space. I feel like it always facilitates those divine meetings. You were both on the ground in Gabon right
David Nassim: Yann would go back and forth to Gabon. Course I have be been several times but Yannn's, the person that knows the arena down there better. Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Which is so different than, having an iboga retreat experience in Costa Rica or something like that. You got to really intimately connect with the Bwiti and the jungle that, that creates the iboga tree.
What were some of those initial challenges or issues or [00:07:00] problems that you were seeing within Iboga?
David Nassim: Y Yann explained to me really that the situation was quite dire in, in Gabon. And it wasn't something that he had he'd made up or he'd, had a, had an idea. Ah, yes. The Iboga is depleted. It's something that was already clear in Gabon that the market price of the medicine was, Going up every year up to, tenfold increases because basically the medicine was in short supply because the medicine essentially is planted in forests, which are public forests.
And essentially the medicine would then be used for traditional use in Gabon for traditional healers. But they were those traditional healers were finding that it was very difficult to actually find the plant. They would go out into the forest as they normally would try to find some of the medicine.
And there wouldn't be any, somebody had already come and taken it. And so they had to go deeper and deeper into the forest. And the deeper and deeper they went into the forest. The more expensive the medicine became. It became a rarity. And [00:08:00] so there was this very clear noticing that Yann had, and this was around about 2010, 2011.
It was very clear that there was a significant problem. And that, and so he wrote a report at that time for the Gabonese presidency to actually report on the fact that, there was a significant problem with the Iboga and people needed to. Be aware that if that was gonna carry on, most probably the plants would become endangered and it could cease to be.
So there was an immediate public awareness process that began about that point. And Yann went all over the world to try to make that point clear to various organizations who ignored him. Almost in entirety.
Peer organizations like Gita, the global Ibogaine therapist association had been told many times that there was an issue with a Iboga, and still there is still some ideology that actually it isn't a problem that there is lots of Iboga in Gabon and, [00:09:00] it's, there's tons of it there.
There just isn't certainly not in the public domain. And There are now private people who have decided since Yann's investigation and the telling of that in the public, in the national public in Gabon, there, there has been this realization, ah, okay, we need to plant a Iboga because otherwise it's going, it's gonna go.
So then after that there have been some individuals who planted very large areas of iboga, but it's kept for themselves. It's not going to be used by traditional healers. It's, it is kept for themselves. It is for their own use or for their own for their own marketing.
Why is there an issue of sustainability in the first place? The issue of why the Iboga was being stripped out of Gabon is because the western world needed it, and the western world was buying that and taking that out of Gabon.
So that's really where the exit of all of this iboga has been. A lot of it has been drawn out to use in [00:10:00] Ibogaine manufacturer and sold it a very low price to poachers who have nothing. These people have absolutely nothing. So they have a means getting money in their life is to, to this to, to the level that Iboga would be valued is there aren't very many methods.
One of them is ivory poaching. Another one is iboga poaching. And those things often go together.
Also to make the point, why would it be poaching of iboga? And the reason that it's poaching is because iboga is protected and it's protected by this clause called the Nagoya protocol.
. This mandate that was signed by Gabon to protect that medicine and that, that happened as a result of Yann's investigation into a Iboga. So it's all part of the same thing. And this is what the, what I mean is that the story of blessings, the forest is tied very deeply into, the issues that have been [00:11:00] happening in Gabon the political environment.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, so it seems like the root of the issue is that increasing demand in the Western world, which, if we dig even deeper to that, the root of that issue is the immense mental health crisis that we are facing in the Western world. So that just gives me chills to even think about, because we're such a, quote unquote, like sick culture.
So disconnected from ourselves and iboga, my experience at least has been that it connects you back to yourself. And when you're connected back to yourself, to your soul, it really like heals. Everything, it heals that disconnection, that sickness. So it makes sense that demand, because of our sickness, is driving all of this.
And then you got the poaching, you've got the demand for ibogaine going up, you've got the, that impacting the Bwiti traditional healers not having access to it. I It's a mess. It's a total mess. And maybe we'll have [00:12:00] Yannn come on at a later date to really dive into those nuances and complexities cuz there's so much to unpack there.
Thank you for giving listeners a nice overview.
Let's get into Blessings of the Forest and the mission there. What's your goal? What are you wanting to achieve and how are you doing?
David Nassim: That's a good question, and I will read for a little bit from just our mission statement, which is just to give you a clearer idea, which is so, , Blessings of the Forest c iic, which is in the uk and ngo, which is in Gabon um, is created for the conservation research and equitable and sustainable development of the natural cultural heritage of indigenous Gabonese people.
Our goal is to listen, understand, and support the Gabonese people in the work of preservation and reciprocity for sharing of their natural cultural heritage. So that benefit is for all. We are dedicated to ensure that this is done fairly and sustainably [00:13:00] through alignment with the direct implementation of the Nagoya protocol thereby protecting the rich resources of the Gabonese forest as well as the way of life of the Gabonese peoples.
So this is the kind of main principle, and just to talk into that a little bit it's to we are working for those groups. We are helping them to do the job of implementing Nagoya protocol of implementing the protection of iboga and making sure that there is a reciprocity for them, for their heritage, because we want to be in, make sure that happens.
That's because we have a A, a strong sense that we want to help and this was the best way that we could find of helping. It's not us. We can't protect and, make sure the Iboga is kept in a particular way.
This is something that the Gabonese have to do themselves. So it is only a way of helping them to do this. What we [00:14:00] do is that we help them to form farms, iboga farms where they are able to grow iboga, on their own lands in, they own everything. And we are the intermediary between them, , the Gabonese government and the international buyer, the international people that want that.
And we are making sure which is the principle of Nagoya al that line is kept clean, that there is reciprocity that comes all the way back to the people that are on the ground and is not taken advantage of at any level.
The buyers in the In the international arena, can't control everything.
This is the point. It's not controlled by them. And the Gabonese government is helping. The connection , between the end user and the farmers. So it's a line.
And of course the people that farm this medicine are the people that are, that understand the [00:15:00] tradition and that that understand the Bwiti practices and what those truly mean.
So it's going directly back and that's what we wanted to help with.
Lana Pribic: Iboga and Bwiti are inseparable. So Blessings of the Forest is working to safeguard both the plant and the traditions of the people. And then, so the Nagoya protocol, can you talk a little bit about that? Maybe high level don't tend to get to we don't get to tend to policy deep on the podcast, but it's good to know the overviews.
David Nassim: I've got, I've made it as simple enough for me to understand,
Lana Pribic: Cool.
We like
David Nassim: that will be enough. Okay. I'm gonna read this a li a little bit again, just to get the points. But Nagoya protocol is a 2010 supplementary agreement of the 1992 Convention on Biological Diversity, which is created by the U United Nations.
So the aim of the convention as a whole is to develop strategies for national bodies in [00:16:00] conservation and sustainable development of their natural resources. So it's an environmental policy.
And Nagoya protocol specifically focuses on the fair and equitable sharing of benefits arising out of what is called genetic resource of a country, this can mean any plant animal microbial or material of other origin. And its associated cultural knowledge that's important, having a genetic heritage to that country, which is considered an actual or potential value.
So it's recognizing that these things that have got genetic heritage and the knowledge that they, that is associated have a value.
They're put placing a value on that. And so the Nagoya regulations apply when materials and knowledge are bought or sold or used. And so too, if research and development is conducted on [00:17:00] genetic resources and or associated traditional knowledge.
Right. So the approach is aimed at contributing to the conservation and sustainable use of biodiversity worldwide.
It sets out obligations for those countries who are assigned to audit themselves under the Nagoya system in relation to access both national and in nationally and internationally to their genetic resources and a regulation of benefit sharing to everybody involved.
So it's if that is understood, that's really the baseline of what nagoya means. It's a way of , making sure that they are protecting their natural resources, and their traditional knowledge, which are joined together are really valued. And that if you want them as an international party, then you need to show reciprocity for, you need to show sharing of [00:18:00] benefits at whatever level.
And that means that also means that if you take seeds from Gabon, let's say Iboga seeds and Gabon, you decide we're gonna take these and we're gonna grow them somewhere else. We're not gonna bother with Gabon anymore. We'll do it. You've still got the genetic material of Gabon and so you know, you've still taken that resource and you are then not providing anything for where the origin of that came from, or if you are do, if you decide that you want to, set up an Ibogaine clinic or whatever it is, and then you want to use some of the traditional knowledge, so some of the music, some of the the traditional methods of healing, the traditional processes associated with use of other forms of herbal medicine involved in your practice.
Then again, that is part of Nagoya protocol and something that the Gabonese are now recognizing that they can claim, and this is really about a process of a [00:19:00] massive colonialism of course, which has happened for thousands of ye years of different countries dipping into African resources and and pulling out what they want.
And just completely raping the resource. And so the Nagoya protocol is a way in which there can be some blocking of that, some real potential blocking of that. If everybody's in agreement, which in Gabon, there is this agreement, there is a governmental looking it's one of the, a few governments in the world that are really of saying, no, we want to protect our cultural heritage.
And that's a really great thing, that they decided to do that. But then the implementation of that is, is a complicated process. And, they have wanted Blessings of the Forest to help them in that process of implementation. And to make sure that the chain all the way through right to the farmer is kept intact.
And that's really our job.
Lana Pribic: So following the Nagoya protocol [00:20:00] is an important way to ensure benefit sharing and long-term sustainability of.
David Nassim: Yes.
Lana Pribic: So when they say genetic heritage, does that relate to the tree itself or the tree and the culture
David Nassim: The tree itself. But because the tree and has joined the culture has joined that there it's an important thing.
And just on that point about Bwiti itself, Bwiti is really a cultural heritage, and it's a practice of several of the ethnic groups of Gabon
It's originating from the ancient ways of life of some of the pygmy tribes of Gabon such as the Babongo. But Bwiti is practiced by many different ethnicities and there are over 50 different different ethnicities in Gabon. We can call it Bwiti culture, but we wouldn't call it Bwiti people.
It's not a tribe. It's a cultural cultural legacy or cultural heritage. So that's a kind of just a [00:21:00] slight differentiation, but it's important. So it's a cultural
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you for that. I've definitely made the mistake of saying Bwiti people, so I know now to not use that terminology. That's great.
So you've outlined all the ways that the Nagoya protocol works to safeguard both the genetic heritage and the culture associated with it.
And how we can ensure that clean chain between Gabon and anyone using Iboga outside of Gabon, whether it's the tree itself or using the music or if they're planting iboga trees outside of Gabon.
So for people who are listening and they're like, okay, this is really important. I wanna make sure that if I choose to experience Iboga, I'm choosing a provider that's following the Nagoya protocol and there is that right relationship between my provider and the Gabonese people.
What can people look for in an IBOGA provider that kind of shows that they are [00:22:00] following that Nagoya protocol and that right relationship?
David Nassim: Yes. There, there are not a huge number of people at the moment that have, the number of providers that have really. Decided to go towards sustainability.
Let's say there are a hundred providers you are talking about a fraction of that, a few percent, to, two or 3% perhaps of that a hundred will be in, engaged in sustainability.
Currently, so that means that what, we have made an estimate of a round about 80 to 90% of the Ibogaine, and I iboga in the market at the moment is from a poached origin. It's coming out of of Gabon directly or coming through Gabon into Cameroon and then coming out in that way.
And so it's being drawn from that resource. And yeah, there are very few that really are engaged. There are a couple which I want to say.
So first of all Jonathan [00:23:00] Dickinson the work that Jonathan Dickinson is doing in Mexico is a key a key base for reciprocity in, involved in this medicine he works with us , what we've been trying to do is to find a root. Medicine to come out through this line that we've created, this Nagoya road that we've created. And Jonathan Dickinson is the person that has been all the way through supporting that to that and wanting to be the person that, the first person to get the medicine coming through to him.
He is the person that, that sort of has started that, that effort in, in the exportation of Iboga.
Another clinic that is also very prominent is beyond clinical, beyond which you, you may know. And they are Doing brilliant work of actually being amongst the first clinics to actually, they will be anyway providing treatments, which have gotten the Nagoya protocol established medicine through their practice. But of course, there isn't any at the moment because we ha we have just really set up [00:24:00] that line that, that hasn't really come through yet.
What is happening right now. And what you can do if you really want to have an experience right now is to make sure that your provider is giving you Ibogaine that is coming from Voacanga, which is a. A plant which is not Tabernanthe Iboga, which is the plant that is protected, but a plant which has got some Ibogaine in it, and it can be utilized for an alternative root for a Iboga.
It's not as easy to get out as the medicine is to get out of Iboga because there's much more of it in Iboga. But Voacanga is a useful in interim resource something that is sustainable and something that you people can use for now. Later on, of course Ibogaine is going to be synthesized.
And we know that is on the cards for the next little while. And Ibogaine synthesis is going to take the majority, probably of the ibogaine [00:25:00] market. Most people will be interested in in synthesized Ibogaine but there will always be people that want to work with Iboga because it doesn't just have one alkaloid of ibogaine, it's got, many more alkaloids, 13 or so which all work together actually in the plant and create a much more a rounded experience.
Because you've got these very serious situations of this epidemic of opioid crisis that's going on people just want the medicine, they just want that. And that's the main focus. And for the majority of people the synthesized Ibogaine will be the thing that can help straight away. But there will be an understanding which grows, I think. And we believe in the network where there is always a place for iboga.
And that's the market really that should be given to the Gabonese.
Lana Pribic: And oh my gosh, that's a whole other podcast episode around synthesized ibogaine and if that's gonna be patented, and like the industry that's gonna create and all the problems associated with the industry, but Yeah. So
David Nassim: And [00:26:00] if there's, if, again, if you can imagine that is the genetic resource of Gabon then is there going to be benefit sharing gonna get associated with that, which there really should be. But we may, as we may have to, start to become more pushy with people and say, look, this is, that you are breaking an an international mandate about the protection of this medicine.
What are you gonna do about it, in your company and in, in your strategy.
Everybody really should be thinking about these kind of things, not only for Iboga, but there's a lot of medicines which are based in products which have come from traditional origin or from forests all over the world. And the resource is stripped and the people that have that resource no longer have that resource, and they don't have any benefits from that being stripped.
Lana Pribic: Absolutely. Absolutely. So you touched on the Voacang a, is that right? Voacanga
David Nassim: Yeah.
Lana Pribic: plant that can [00:27:00] contain it's close to Ibogaine, but
David Nassim: It is a related plant, it has a little bit of Ibogaine in it and the plant can grow much more readily and in many different situations. So a lot of people have said okay, let's just grow a whole load of that and then we don't have to, damage the resource in Gabon
yes you could do that, but again, you are missing the point, which is that the whole idea of where Ibogaine was originated came from the use of Iboga in Gabon. And then there's an attempt to shut out the Gabonese from that line. And so what we are saying is, It's no, there's no point doing that.
Especially because all of the other alkaloids within the Tabernanthe Iboga are so very important and people are beginning to recognize that science is beginning to recognize that it's not just the, again, it's all of the other aspects, of course, because it's a whole plant. And so it's it's all of the other aspects that actually help with
Lana Pribic: Yeah. But no doubt, ibogaine [00:28:00] has been helpful and, detoxing and yeah. It definitely has its role,
David Nassim: co. Oh yes, for sure. It's had, it's really had an effect on many people's lives and changed many people's lives. And I think that if those people actually knew about this, which of course they don't because the providers don't tell them that this is a resource that has, where that resource has come from.
If those people knew, those veterans and all of those d different people who've had their lives totally changed from this if they knew, oh, hang on a second, actually this resource is being damaged. And, I'm sure those people would actually go, oh, we need to do something about that.
And
They do, we very often, hear from people like that who have gone through the whole process and then found us and gone, oh, I didn't realize there was a problem. And yeah,
Lana Pribic: How much of the pressure on Gabon and on the resources on on the Iboga tree is from Ibogaine. Do you have an idea or an [00:29:00] estimate,
David Nassim: It's very difficult to tell when it's, because we can't the problem is that, once these resources , have escaped Gabon it's very hard to trace them. Even in Gabon it's difficult to trace, because we don't know fully, how much there is in Gabon.
What it, what that would require is a kind of complete inventory of the area, totally looking at the area and really checking out what was going on. And that hasn't been done because there just hasn't been enough funding. But we can tell from the price, we can tell from how long it takes to get the medicine where, that's how the, these me, the, these sort of empirical methods of understanding how much there is.
What we can say is that it is becoming rarer, in the public domain. It is becoming rarer and rarer and rarer. We know that because , there isn't a huge load of people that are, focusing on Voacanga we, where else can it come from?
It's not coming from synthesis. It's not coming from [00:30:00] Voacanga. So the only other place that it can come from is iboga. . And if it's coming from Iboga, then it can only be coming out of Cameroon or, and Gabon. And if it's coming out of Cameroon, we know that the root of 90% of what's coming outta Cameroon is coming from Gabon.
So from that, all of that extrapolation, we can make that estimate, which has to be at the moment. But it's a very good estimate. It isn't a guesswork. It's, it is a it's really looking at what we can to understand it and to really looking at the, the resources of the of, when people are caught poaching and you know how much they're caught with and, all of that kind of thing.
Lana Pribic: So it's safe to guess that the majority of the iboga is coming
David Nassim: The majority. Yeah we, that's what we say. We think it's about 80 to 90%.
Lana Pribic: Wow. Wow. So I wanna go back to how Blessings of the Forest is operating and working with the Gabonese it says in your mission statement that your goal [00:31:00] is to listen and to understand and to really build that bridge so that there's benefits for all parties involved, not just the people taking this tree from the forests.
It sounded to me like there's really the sense of wanting to empower the Gabonese to like do this themselves and to support them in doing that rather than coming in with a savior complex and
David Nassim: Exactly because we could it's just all of that has of been done many times
Lana Pribic: It
David Nassim: it doesn't work and it's not it's not our right. It's their medicine is their
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
David Nassim: and so it is what it is like putting into their hands the tools that they can use to develop that, those, that strategy and be able to have the, the, they're all agriculturalists anyway.
They know how to grow whatever they want, but it essentially is to suggest planting Iboga. And doing it in particular ways, which we have seen it throughout Gabon, which are just permaculture, natural permaculture [00:32:00] approaches, which have been used for thousands of years.
Which are ways that the weather, the trees develop in the, in a very consistent way and with strong roots and strong medicine within those roots. And yeah. And basically it's, yeah it's about helping them to. Create the farms, create the legal structures around those farms to be able to manage financially.
The when they get, when hope, we are hoping for when the, there is a movement where there's exportation that's, they will be getting a very large proportion of that money. And then it's about how that money is distributed. We don't allow that money to be given to one individual that's controlling all of that.
But we give to organizations, we give to community or groups that have to use that money to ensure everybody in the village is going to be benefit. And they do that themselves. This is not something [00:33:00] that we govern. They are in that process of doing it. So it's all based on Helping them to.
Form their own ways of doing this and basically giving them what they need to do that, providing them for, with what they need. So that can be, that there is no resources to get a bridge that is, over a river that they need to cross on a daily basis to get their, the, their vehicles and their, the movement through that.
So we give them the resources to build that bridge or that there isn't any water in that situation. So we provide the water supply we provide the the, if they need roofing for their houses or they need a new school or they need whatever, these are the things that we of provide to, to get them what they want.
They need to stipulate, we we need this. And then we provide that. We help them to create what they need and we help them to create that farm because we know that once they have that they're [00:34:00] self-sustaining, they have that and they have the connection to the Nagoya system, they're a self-sustaining system.
And so this is how that works. And Blessings of the Forest will, in that process we take a percentage a percentage of the profits and that goes back into Blessings of the Forest in order for us to then be able to support another village and another village and another village.
And that is how we expand the project. There, there are over 200 villages in Gabon. We are working with 14 of them. It's not a lot we are working with, but the idea, could be that if people start to realize that you. Form your a sustainable life for yourself and your children and your family in the in the countryside.
Then it actually stimulates that sort of realization that that actually this kind of westernized city culture, city mentality, culture, which, has caused a lot of us in the West, a lot of diseases and a lot of problems, and, is then, colonially sold [00:35:00] to, to, to many different places in the world.
, there's this idea that that somehow the, western countries have got it right. There's this actual realization that actually no, that isn't the case. And actually Western culture is coming to learn from the Gabonese to absorb and understand what it is like to actually create community and to understand how that can work because these people are very rich in much of what, the west is in total poverty.
Bassé
Lana Pribic: Bassé. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. The urbanization is such a threat to the Bwiti culture, right? Because moving out of the villages, out of the countryside into the city tends to lead to a loss of those cultural traditions and values and practices.
David Nassim: There's a lot of Jesuit destruction of the whole way of life of the Gabonese and we are coming to them now, is this is really what needs to, instead of okay, we're just gonna take this plant out of the country
Lana Pribic: need each
other. [00:36:00] It's like
need each other right now.
David Nassim: yeah. And yeah and I think we need them more. And in a way the, we, I think that they have a lot to to explain to us and for us to be able to hear. So it is something that yeah. Yeah, I think it's it's that way round.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. What does that partnership with the Gabonese look like on the ground while you're working with them? What has the reception to your work been like? How are you really cultivating these trusting relationships? Cuz I imagine going in as an organization of Westerners into an area of the world that, may be resistant to that.
It takes a lot of grace, it takes a lot of humility, takes a lot of, playing the long game and building that trust. So yeah. What does that partnership look
David Nassim: that's exactly what you're saying is exactly it, which is that, if you want to be, respected [00:37:00] by the Gabonese, you have to live with them. And that's something that I haven't done. Let's be clear about that. I have not done that. I have been helping Yann, and Yann has done that.
He lives with them. He understands the culture. And, his wife is Gabonese, he's part of that connection. And just to say his wife is the president of our organization.
As far as I have experienced when I have gone there first of all, there's a sort of surprise that, why would it be that Westerners would be interested? And then there's this real, interest , there's a feeling there that that they're being recognized. , that is really important. this feeling of at last there's a sort of recognition for for who they are. And there, there's, there's been a whole process of that being diminished. And I think that what Blessings of the Forest tries to do is to say we are not d diminishing this, thi this is vital.
And it's a vital heritage for people to, to connect to [00:38:00] the origins of humanity really as is there. Yeah it's very I think overall it, it's. Seen as being a, a, something that is, that people love. They, when they notice us now, Blessings of the Forest, that the our logos and things are in Gabon.
So they, they notice us. And there, there's a lot of joy associated with that now. Which, which I think is great to see.
Lana Pribic: Thank you for sharing that. That brought some tears into my eyes. Just hearing that's really special that you as an organization have been able to build such beautiful and, respectful connection with such an important and vital to use your word, vital culture on Earth that is really connected to something that most of us on the planet have lost connection to, and it is so vital to keep this culture alive and the teachings of this culture [00:39:00] alive because it is connected to that primal truth of what life on earth means.
That's how I feel. Anyways, I don't know how that resonates with
David Nassim: you
Yeah. Yeah. I see, I think I see that the Iboga experience is a very powerful mirror. It's just a, an extremely very clear kind of mirror per perfect quality of a mirror. And that it, it can really show you that Yes, that's identity. That's that identity that has been that we all have and we live within that sort of bubble of that identity.
And that's bubble living has, I think created a bubble society. And I think that that has meant that we have we more and more move away from a community connection and connection to nature. Or a sort of a sense of. Oneness with nature. And I think that's, that movement has been going on for thousands and [00:40:00] thousands of years since we left these forests originally.
In fact I think it's an amazing thought that there are still populations of people that have the original strands of all of our dna, n a and and some of those peoples are in this part of the world.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Beautifully said. I wanna be careful with my next question cause I don't wanna ask you in a way that I'm asking you to speak on behalf of the Gabonese people and Bwiti culture. So
David Nassim: I can't do that
Lana Pribic: being, yeah. Yeah. So I just wanna be mindful of it, but from your understanding and from your work with Blessings of the Forest, what is your understanding of what reciprocity looks like for Iboga and the Bwiti culture?
What.
David Nassim: yes, I mean that you are right to say that the, that it is something that they have to answer. And I think that is in process at the moment what it really looks like. What I can say from [00:41:00] Nagoya the Nagoya principle, if you like, the Nagoya idea, is that it really should be fair and sustainable.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
David Nassim: And it should reflect the importance of that. What does that mean? Blessings of the Forest is, we are a sort of a pilot scheme of of this reciprocity idea. We are go to these villages and this, we say, what do you need?
What is it that you need in order to make yourself function in in a in a way that you want to? And what do you need in order to be able to move to that self-sustaining situation and and the iboga itself, it, it, it's a long-term strategy iboga because it takes, seven years to grow really properly.
You can harvest it, I believe after three to five years. But, to really establish itself, it's a seven year process. And what are you gonna do in the meantime? And in the meantime there's other things that are going on. There's this absolutely [00:42:00] beautiful process these ese farmers came to to form, which is about working with bees, working with honey.
Iboga is very loved by elephants. The fruit is a totally adored by elephants. And of course, there's the largest group of elephants in central West Africa is in this part of the world. So there's elephants that come through the forest, and when they smell the iboga, they go off and they will, they'll just eat it.
But of course, if you've got an iboga area you, everything gets trampled. So it's a difficulty. These farmers understood that actually bees are the thing that elephants d find the biggest problem.
So they have beehives all the way around their plantations of iboga. And they produce honey. And so the honey production is much quicker. And so we are beginning to find ways of being able to find that, again, similar Nagoya chain Nagoya line, but with honey that comes from these these [00:43:00] farms.
They start with the honey could create some revenue with the honey and then can move on to the iboga later on. And so it makes sure that the elephants don't trample the iboga plants.
It's a brilliant method because it means that there is a kind of way in which you are protecting elephants. Because if those elephants come along and they destroy your vegetable patch and destroy that over and over again , what usually happens is you shoot the elephants because it's causing so many problems.
But of course, that's illegal. There's these strategies which are coming into play now of these very complete of bio culture strategies where you need to protect the elephants, but you also need to protect the people.
And you also need to protect the medicine. And there's a way of being able to do that. Which is possible. These are the kind of strategies which Yann has really developed and, helped to form and yeah it's going very well.
These kind of things.
Lana Pribic: [00:44:00] Amazing. And yeah, thank you for that note on the reciprocity and that is still being defined, and it sounds like Blessings of the Forest is working to listen at the definition of how the Gabonese define that
David Nassim: reciprocity
Exactly. Yeah. And they may change that definition and it's up to them. We, yeah we are working with an organization now the translation is the Association of the Sacred Knowledge, in Gabon. And that is the association, which is held by master Mob, who is our honorary president of our association in Gabon, in the ngo.
This organization in Gabon is a collective of many different ethnic groups who all practice Bwiti and have said this person master is the person that we want to speak for us.
And so he is working on what reciprocity really means and what that is [00:45:00] going to entail. And it's a process of speaking to. All of these leaders, indigenous leaders, and seeing what it is that they would like to do and how they want to protect their culture and what they want to do, which also includes things like the ip the intellectual property rights to what they're doing, which unfortunately in this world of ip is something that that people are really looking into.
They want to and they need to protect these kind of, these these things from by piracy and and yeah.
Lana Pribic: So are we speaking about the knowledge from the Bwiti culture
David Nassim: Yes, we are. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's the traditional knowledge and the practices around Iboga and the herbal medicine around Iboga, because it's not just iboga is one, one medicine that's is in the forest. There are over 800 plants that are part of the the traditional pygmy medicine pharmacopia.
And so there's many [00:46:00] medicines that that are there. So yeah, they were all used as a complete picture.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense how that IP process would help with kind of the legalities of international protection of the culture and the ways that makes sense.
David Nassim: Yeah.
Lana Pribic: So for people who are listening and are very touched by this, all this information, as I am, I've definitely teared up a few times while you were speaking.
It just feels so important
David Nassim: That's
Lana Pribic: you're doing and hearing your words, where does Blessings of the Forest need support at this time and how can listeners get involved?
David Nassim: To be honest, the main thing is funding. It is a big operation to cover this. And we are supported by wonderful organizations such as the Indigenous Medicine Conservation Fund which is has been e extremely helpful in [00:47:00] providing for us as well as other people, other organizations but we still need more funds.
It is a big project and as you can imagine, it's gonna hopefully ideally going to increase to include more people and more more villages. And that process means that we need more funding so that we can do that
everything at the moment or should I say until the last sort of couple of, I would say 18 months to two years has been completely voluntary.
And now we are starting to get a little bit more funds so that we can actually expand. Things in the last two years have been quite exponentially opening until like today. In fact, yesterday there was an article from national Geographic that did focused on on Blessings of the Forest.
So yes, we have that beginning pit fit to have people really looking into what we're doing. And yeah, the there's it's expanding, but it, we need funds. Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
David Nassim: So ultimately people can engage with [00:48:00] the. First of all, the idea that this is a resource that requires looking at and that that if you have been touched by the medicine particularly, I think if you've been touched by the medicine, then I think that it's it's, it is really wonderful If you feel that you want to help, and if you do want to help, then you talk about that, talk about that to each other, to other people about what reciprocity is about the idea of noga al and Blessings of the Forest.
And if you feel that you can, and it is it is possible then to, to just offer us something that we can use in this light.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. And what is it on the website? Is it 30 euros creates one tree or
60 euros?
David Nassim: Yes it is. In fact the website is gonna be updated within the next sort of two weeks. So it's going to give a really good established expression with all of our statistics on there. But yes, it's approximately , 30 euros to, for a [00:49:00] tree, and that includes all of the stuff in between and everything to actually get that tree planted.
And Exactly. It's, in fact, a tree is much, is not expensive at all but the everything around it is very much.
Lana Pribic: Personally, I feel such a responsibility having a platform that is listened to a lot by people who are interested in psychedelics. After my experience with Iboga in Costa Rica and how life changing it was and how I shared it with people, I'm sure that in effect will make many people who listen to it go experience Iboga for themselves.
So I definitely feel responsible to give back and through Blessings of the Forest. So we've committed 3% of our profits from Flow Formula, our program, and in the future I'm definitely gonna be thinking about how I can continue to support your work, especially with,
David Nassim: you. It's really wonderful and yeah really appreciate it. It's all of that. This is the thing. It's because this is really a community project. Our company is a community interest [00:50:00] company. We, that it is all a based around a community projects and the community is derived from, people like yourself and people who have got that real interest to actually just give something.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. If you're listening, especially if you've had an experience with Iboga, please consider donating to the blessings of the forest. It's really easy. I've donated a few times now it's couple clicks.
And you can know that you've Yeah. Helped plant a few iboga trees in Gabon. And I think I heard Yann say that it takes about five iboga trees per e experience with Iboga to quote unquote replenish or make up for. The supply. .
David Nassim: Yes. Yes. I think he may have been talking about for people who, especially for people who have, who've had addictive patterns and may need
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Listeners, please consider donating to this beautiful organization. It's the least we can do. This has been so great.
Thank you so much. I wanna end cuz you're a traditional Chinese medicine,
um, practitioner. And I'm really curious from your perspective when you look at [00:01:00] Iboga as a medicine, as perhaps an herbal medicine, What's your understanding of it in terms of like energy and what it has to offer in terms of a medicine?
David Nassim: Yeah. Yes, it's a really good question. Basically, I've had a lot of interest in that area because of course it's not a traditional herbal medicine from China. It's a different medicine and one has to look at that.
Using Chinese medical principles and understanding the nature of herbs in general. But the way that I look at that medicine needs to be in conjunction with that whole category of medicines. So the psychotropics as a general perspective, so psychotropic as a general, cause I can understand that.
We call that medicines that open the orifices. So they open the body, [00:02:00] they open the mind and the circulation. They open the sweats, they open the, of the skin, they expand and open things. And in that process, of course you have this opening and sensitization, this stimulation.
It there's an expansion. Quality. Which is the obvious the obvious process of the nervous system reconnecting all parts of the brain together or things, reconnecting fundamentally. Yeah, it's essentially these medicines it looks like what they do is to have a, have an effect of reconnecting the body and then allowing, in fact I believe the function of the organism to actually come as a whole unit rather than little separate bits.
So this is what this these medicines tend to how they tend to affect the [00:03:00] body. And Iboga in particular, when we look at a plant in Chinese medicine, we are looking at the nature of how it grows and what it's like. So if you look at a, an Ayahuasca vine, it's a vine. It's got this particular nature to it and it grows in this particular way.
And that has the body and the associated materials of the body that actually. Have a resonance to vines,
but when you're looking at roots, which is what you are looking at with Iboga, it's a completely different quality. It's this downward energy, this energy that is driving downwards. And so it's a very complex medicine iboga because while it is within this category of expansion, it's also expansion down. It's also in.
So it is this complex, very complex thing of it being an inward expansion or this inward kind of[00:04:00] like a root going downwards and inwards and expanding at the same time.
As you could call it like a le light, it's like light, but it's like laser light. It's a quality, which is this is why it's a very different effect. You cannot see this, these categories of plants as all doing the same thing. Because they all have a different quality or nature to them, and they all have to be worked with very often.
, ultimately the people that know how to work with these plants and people that have had those plants with them for generations and generations, that it's almost part of their dna that they're working with this kind of plant.
And that's that's imparted, so these people really understand these plants
what I really understand about Iboga is that it gets to the root of things. It can get, it can really get very deeply and and really get to the root [00:05:00] or uproot the identity patterns and the things that have formed trauma identities or, or other kind of addiction identities, it really gets to that and for a moment, and I will always say that if for a moment it breaks, but then it will come back, but it will never come back in the same. And I think that fact that it never comes back in the same way and it act with and need to really look at in your life and to work with that for a long time afterwards to really see that pattern to the you see that pattern over and over again.
And yeah, it softens that, that idea that you are an absolute thing. That there is, that you are absolutely this one thing and there can't be anywhere way outta that breaks that idea and and [00:06:00] shows that there is is possibility beyond understanding.
Lana Pribic: hearing your understanding of it, and I definitely resonated with that based on my experience. Yeah. It's interesting. Ayahuasca grows outwards and upwards and connects us to that ethereal, universal energy. Iboga grows downwards, takes us deeper inside.
David Nassim: And our trisha Eastman and Joseph Baig that, they have
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
David Nassim: spoken about this kind of thing before from their own fewer of that. I think that Joseph has said something similar in the past between looking at those very different medicines like the DMT type plants.
I, I prefer to describe them as the whole plant rather than the dMT is just another, in Chinese medicine, we try to look at it as a whole thing, . We try to look at that plant as the whole thing and and he, and the vine and
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And shout out and thank you to Tricia who connected us, and she was actually the [00:07:00] first guest two years ago who came on modern psychedelics and spoke about Iboga. And I've listened back to that episode and I knew so little about Iboga compared to now that it's pretty, pretty amazing that she was part of, planting that seed for me.
Yeah, she's awesome. We love you Tricia. David, thank you so much.
This has been absolutely incredible and provided so much important information for our listeners. Thank you for sharing and for the work that you do.
Where can people connect with you? Blessings of the forest and Yeah, we've already mentioned go to the website and donate if you can.
Where can people like keep up with what you guys are doing and all of that? .
David Nassim: Yeah, the website is the key thing. And I think that I think I sent you that we did a little
Lana Pribic: I'll link that in the show notes.
David Nassim: The general picture of what we are doing. And if you can link that would be great. Yeah, that's a good way of doing it. But yeah, it's mainly the website I can
Lana Pribic: so [00:08:00] much. I'm sure Forest will be on the show at some point in the future, and yeah, thank you so much. Gratitude.
