098 | MDMA for Relational Healing & How Psychedelics Improve Therapeutic Capacity w/ Dr. Anne Wagner
“I now feel like a psychedelically-informed therapist in any type of therapy that I do, because it brings forward in me this ability to really be with whatever the unfolding process is in the room.”
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I take so much care in selecting guests for the show, and Dr. Anne Wagner is no exception. Dr. Anne Wagner is a psychologist, therapist, researcher, and founder of Remedy Institute in Toronto. Anne has developed an understanding of herself as a bridge between worlds – between research and practice, community and academia, non-ordinary states and our daily lives, and different modalities of therapy.
Expect to hear about cutting-edge MDMA research in a truly heart-centered conversation. Anne shares about her personal history with MDMA and psychedelics, and how that work has made her a better therapist (and person).
Also, join me in welcoming Kev G (producer of the show!) to the hosting mic. Together, Anne and Kev are bringing you a conversation that is not only educational and inspiring, but also real, humble and graceful. Hang out until the end for some amazing banter around fear, fearlessness, creativity, and love.
Topics Covered:
Creating a clinic for mental wellness that self-funds research
Innovation in mental wellness within strict regulatory systems
Anne’s firsthand experience of the therapeutic potential of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy
Why Anne was convinced that MDMA is an effective therapeutic tool
How psychedelics have made Anne a better psychotherapist
Creating containers for psychedelic work & the integration process
How to make the most out of psychedelic work and integration
MDMA therapy for relational work to heal shared PTSD
Foundational skills to cultivate before embarking on MDMA couples therapy
How MDMA therapy helps couples work through relational fears
The purpose of fear & how it shows up in creativity
What is Love?
LISTEN
Things Mentioned in This Episode
Show Links:
Where to find Dr. Anne Wagner
About Dr. Anne Wagner:
Anne has developed an understanding of herself as a bridge between worlds – between research and practice, community and academia, non-ordinary states and our daily lives, and different modalities of therapy. A vision for seeding a field of wildflowers, creating opportunities for everyone to thrive and pursue their ideas at Remedy Institute, has been a guiding force. Remedy Institute is the crystallization of a dream for Anne – it is the creation of a home for accessible access to mental health services, conducting research, and creating community around heart-led, innovative practices. With experience as the Founder of Remedy, the former Principal Director of STAND Canada, a Board Member at Casey House, and a therapist, researcher, consultant, supervisor, and artist, she brings the alchemy of these experiences to her role as the founder of Remedy Institute.
Looking for a professional coach to support you on your psychedelic path?
Look no further! Along with being the host of the Modern Psychedelics Podcast, Lana is a 3x certified professional coach who works with people on the psychedelic path.
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Anne Wagner: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of modern psychedelics. Thank you for joining us today. We have the esteemed. Dr Ann Wagner With us in studio. Hello. Hi How are you good? I'm glad to be here. Yeah have this conversation me too. Thank you for joining us there's so many things I want to talk about so much of your work touches on areas that i'm like personally very curious about but i'd love to get a quick intro on what it is you do, but i'd love to frame it Through the lens of wildflowers and so if I may reflect a line from your bio, this is from Anne's bio Seeding wildflowers by supporting innovative ideas at remedy and remedy Institute what is what are wildflowers and how does that reflect on what you do?
Yeah So this image of wildflowers has been with me Since I started thinking about the idea of remedy, and I loved this concept of [00:01:00] creating the environment and perhaps sprinkling some seeds and then seeing. whatever grows from there and it's usually something really beautiful in a field of wildflowers and You can't necessarily know where it's going to go.
You can't Direct it every year to know that like i'm going to have This many daisies and this many of something else but rather it's going to grow into something gorgeous and beautiful on its own Also, they're my favorite flowers. Like I much prefer something that's a wildflower to something that's been cultivated and curated in a particular way that It feels a little unnatural.
So this idea of wildflowers for me with Remedy had to do with the fact that I wanted to create a home for people to be able to have that freedom to grow ideas, grow concepts, innovate, but not necessarily have to be held to a particular structure around it. They could do it in the way that they wanted to in the realm of mental [00:02:00] health, generally speaking.
And I saw that a lot because As a psychologist in my training and through the beginning of my career, I kept seeing very finite pathways to what you could do, and there were, you were often asked this question of, so are you going to go into academia? Are you going to be a clinician? And even like in interviews, going into grad school, that's what they're asking.
And I remember the timing I have no idea. I just want to work in the idea of helping with. Mental health and wellness. That's and work with people. I like that. People are fascinating to me. I knew all the way along. I'm like, I love different pieces of this work. I love understanding things better and helping create Tools and pathways for people to feel better which means like for example developing new treatments or refining treatments But also much beyond that like I loved seeing clients, but I also love the idea of working with the team and [00:03:00] figuring that out so For me, when I was trying to decide like, Oh, do I want to go work at a university or a hospital or a clinic or just hang out my shingle on my own?
I realized I'm like, the thing I love the most is working with people. I love having a community and bouncing ideas around and getting to grow something together. And at the same time, I was starting to work in psychedelics and that definitely encourages that interconnectedness and understanding that we're all working side by side and sometimes interconnectedly, and I wanted to have a home where that could happen.
And also at the time, It wasn't very supported, shall we say, to do psychedelic work in the institution. So we see, there's been a lot of change around that, even since 10 years ago when I started doing this work. But when I was developing the idea for Remedy, which was in 2017, and we launched in 2018, I knew I wanted to try to create something different.
What we did was created [00:04:00] this center called Remedy, which is a clinic, and Remedy Institute, which is a charity. And it's an ecosystem where our profit from Remedy directly gets donated to Remedy Institute to fund research and bursaries. So people who can't access mental health services are able to.
And that means this is symbiotic structure that works together. And everyone who works there is invited to. work on their own ideas if it's related to psychedelics or not. And so we're seeing that now we're, five and a bit years in and we've got a quite a large team both on the clinical and the research side and you can see people's interests and ideas start to fruit and come out with these different ideas, which is amazing.
And one of our cornerstones has always been psychedelic research because that's what I came in. Wanting to do, and a lot of my team are really interested in that too. But it's the idea is that it will continue to grow and everyone will get to grow their [00:05:00] own ideas and expertise. That's so cool.
I love the ecosystem model of making a for profit kind of enterprise and then using the profits to fund a charitable arm of the same enterprise, essentially. And The word profit is how do you what's your relationship with the word profit? Oh tenuous. At best I would say Having very strong anti capitalist roots.
I have a really I had a really hard time With even the idea of opening something that would generate quote unquote profit. And when I was thinking about all of these different structures for what remedy could be, part of it was trying to go through different models and business structures of going Oh how can you actually open something that you are seeing clients and doing it in a particular way?
And being a psychologist, I'm also regulated. So that means that if I practice psychology, it has to be in a certain [00:06:00] type of professional organization structure. So I was like, okay there's, um, boundaries, at least around this, it's I can't I can't use testimonials on our websites.
For example, I can't, it can't be extractive in any way. Cause I'm still bound by the ethics of my profession. So that felt comfortable for me. And then finally realized I could do this idea. Of donating any profit that we make over to the Institute. That also felt really comfortable because then it was like, ah, we're essentially operating in a not for profit model and we're still able to create some source of funding for the research and for bursaries.
So that helped me feel ethical and at ease with that decision. Cause initially I was like, it's all just going to be a not for profit. And then I realized that. This model will actually help itself sustain and generate and not always be at the behest of donors, which is hard. And we see that like we, all of our research is funded by philanthropy .
And so [00:07:00] that's, when you're doing a big study, you need big support from people, and that's hard to try to keep doing the work and seeking the funding for the work. And so the idea being over time is that at least our core, core research not our big trials, but, our program evaluation and our ability to research things on a slightly smaller scale will be self funded.
And that feels good. Nice to not always be Chasing support.
Kev G: Yeah,
maybe a little more focused You have the ability to be more focused exactly without being distracted by the fundraising Yeah, I mean if I may share I that was actually one of the main reasons I actually What I've take therapy at remedy.
Anne Wagner: Oh cool,
Kev G: because I went to an event there and I learned about the whole thing and felt like by my going to Remedy, I was not only getting Therapeutic help from a really high level and like very psychedelic and like alternative lifestyle friendly space But that also some of my money was going to essentially be [00:08:00] donated or for partly funding Some of the research that I care a lot about so that was like a fun ticket in for me
Anne Wagner: Oh, i'm so glad to hear that because that's exactly what we're hoping for is that people will feel like they're You They're getting the best mental health care that they want and need and that they're contributing.
Kev G: Therapy is a great way to donate to research.
Anne Wagner: It is. Exactly. That's the model.
Kev G: Yes. I love that. Um, the idea of innovation is like very forward in, in the way you describe your work. And it's occurred to me that you have to play within, like you say, regulations and within a very like strictly.
Monitored set of fields, not just in like psychotherapy or therapeutic context, but within substance like regulation. And I'm just curious about how you see your self fitting. How do you keep. Innovating. Yeah, like [00:09:00] where do you like it's because it'd be easy to go rogue and like pull a richard alpert and tim Larry and just go underground or it'd be easy to play it safe and never touch it Like where how do you find the line?
Anne Wagner: yeah, that tension you're speaking to going like it would be in some ways a lot easier to go rogue right or go underground and do it in that way or Not do it. We've spent five years doing this one pilot study, and many times I've gone, Why? Why have we spent five years doing this one thing?
And knowing that's actually probably the best thing to do. Our best trait is our tenacity, honestly, and doing it. And so it's like, we're innovating, but that doesn't mean it has to be at a ridiculously quick pace. It could be that we're trying to pursue ideas and we're adjusting and changing as we learn and grow and figure out hurdles and [00:10:00] keep it going.
And coming across like many hurdles that I wouldn't, some I could have anticipated, but others that were, you know, of course, left field pandemic and the middle of a trial and things like that. But the idea of innovation for me happens in we're holding this idea and trying to bring it forward within our clinical trial.
And so the, really it's the, like the trial itself is innovative, but we can't innovate. In ways that would make it, unethical or breaking a regulation. So we can innovate within a particular structure, which will then allow us to innovate in different ways once that's done, right?
So we're contributing to the science that will hopefully be helping it become legal here in Canada. And that means that we're able to help support. What will be more innovative psychotherapy with psychedelics down the road.
Kev G: I love that It's like [00:11:00] you're basically going to the edge and then you're pushing the edge farther Instead of going beyond the edge or not coming close to it You're going to it and then you're doing the work to move it down the line build foundations for more progress so that It seems to be like one of a number of benefits could be that more people can access the type of treatment you're developing and you're contributing to science and yeah, I could totally see how that would be a valid route of innovating.
Anne Wagner: Yeah. And it's, it does provide opportunity already. So for example, like we are starting to bring people through the special access program with health Canada, which is, a case by case applications to do either MDMA assisted or psilocybin assisted therapy. And it's for a treatment resistant PTSD or treatment resistant depression.
And given our experience with our clinical trials and the fact that I am a trainer for folks in MDMA assisted therapy, we're able to not [00:12:00] only be successful in those applications, but in some ways have a different. relationship with that program and we've gotten the feedback that we submit really solid applications and therefore, those are considered strongly because of our background and because of we, we've run these trials.
So we understand all of the nuance that has to go into the safety decision making and the screening for folks and things like that. So it's been interesting in the slow. sometimes painful process of doing the trials is already yielding the opportunity to see it in practice, even though it's, small numbers of people that were able To translate it that way.
Kev G: That's so cool. You're building tools via these endeavors that then you're able to use in other contexts. So sick. So I really want to get. Okay. Perfect. Some more info about these pilot studies that you're doing and [00:13:00] just like a high level overview. But first I'm curious about Why? There is even psychedelic research happening at remedy I'm curious about your experience with MDMA and how it informed your decision to even do all this really hard And very important work
Anne Wagner: great question.
Okay. So the My relationship with mdma I like framing it that like that because a lot of the work we do is relational with mdma So my relationship with mdma started in a happenstance way I was one of those kids who did not engage with psychedelics at all. I really had no idea what they were.
Nothing at all. Nothing at all. Did you smoke weed? Little bit. Little bit. Little bit. But nothing at all in terms of psychedelics until I was introduced to this idea of MDMA assisted therapy. I was like, what [00:14:00] the heck is that? That sounds really fascinating. And yeah, as much as I, had not tried any psychedelics, I was very interested in meditation and mindfulness.
And that had been a big part of my world for a while up until that point. And so I'm like, Oh, this seems to resonate with the things I already value and I'm interested in and deeply interested in the human psyche and our interconnected experience. I was like this seems like this could be an interesting fit.
And my first experience actually taking MDMA was in a trial for therapists. And so there was a training trial that used to take place in the States, where if you were going to be working with MDMA potentially clinically in a trial, you had an opportunity to take it yourself. So you knew what it felt, what it would feel like.
So I definitely got, the deluxe version of a first experience. In that way. And it is deluxe. Yeah. Like medical [00:15:00] grade GNP produced MDMA with, to the world experts as my therapists. And it was just, it was pretty unbelievable. And I got this opportunity to really feel what it's like to be in MDMA assisted therapy.
And it was definitely life changing for me. And I was walking into that, like very open minded, very curious, but I really had no. I wasn't leaning one direction in terms of going I think this is gonna be super helpful. I was more like, I'm curious to see if this would be. An interesting tool.
But after that experience, I was sold of going, this is absolutely something that I think could be helpful in therapy because I found it super helpful in that moment. But also knowing the work that I was already involved in, which was looking at couples therapy for PTSD, right? So two people interacting together to try to heal the impact of trauma.
The idea of adding [00:16:00] MDMA to that, I was like well, That just makes total sense, like it just did allow people to feel empathy and connect and be able to stay with their trauma in a different way. So that was my introduction to it. And that was, we ran a pilot study in the US that was sponsored by maps at the time.
Very small, six couples went through this and I was a postdoc at the time working with three of my esteemed senior colleagues. I just was so captured by it, like I just found it so fascinating and so healing for folks in a way that I had kept hoping would happen in, and it does happen sometimes in therapy on its own, but would have reached a different level.
of experience when, with a good percentage of people who are doing it in that setting. So that was my intro to it. I loved it. I thought it [00:17:00] was fascinating. I also really loved the community at that time when we started doing the work, we started coming up with this idea in 2014, working on it. I didn't really know that there were other people who were doing psychedelic research other than obviously I did my lit searches and I could see like, Oh, the Hopkins folks are doing some psilocybin work.
And I started reading up on my history and understanding all of that, but I really had never met anybody else who was doing psychedelic research beyond our little team. And we were literally, we're doing on an Island in South Carolina. So we were we were On, Sullivan's Island and Mount Pleasant and just doing this really cool little study and this place that was really fabulous to go visit.
And then. I got the opportunity to go to the training for the folks who were going to become the phase three therapists on MAPS studies of MDMA assisted therapy. And I met this whole community of other people who also thought this was going to be a really effective tool. And to this [00:18:00] day, those feel like my most heart centered colleagues, other than my folks at Remedy.
But they're, we're all, we've all kind of been in this world for eight, 10 years before media attention got really big on it before all these commercial players started to come in. It just, it felt like a very nurturing and fascinating world to be in. And so I knew I was like, I want to build a hub for that in Toronto.
I want us to be able to do that here in Canada. And that was where the idea of remedy started. And, uh, so yeah, so I started coming up with the idea in. Like 2017 ish, and then we launched in 2018 and yeah, the world has changed a heck of a lot in terms of what it looks like in the psychedelic realm. And it feels interesting because sometimes we're positioned as being like this entrepreneurial clinic.
I'm like, eh, that doesn't really fit with what we are and what we do. And instead I [00:19:00] think of us as a. A research, but also a a community hub really for this work. And so it's been interesting also to ride the wave of. Things changing so significantly, but then we're on this downside of the crest, which to me is a bit of a relief.
We just get to keep going and doing the work we've been doing, and we'll come up with the results from when it's time, and there we go.
Kev G: Yeah, you're you're the through line. You're there, you were there before it was popular, you're there while it's popular, it's, if there's a downswing, like you're the, You need the constant progress.
Anne Wagner: That's our aim. Just we're gonna keep going in a, in the pace that feels right for our team. , not having to push in this way, that's gonna be. Disruptive for us in a in an unhelpful way.
Kev G: It sounds like a sustainable pace. That's the hope what if anything? I'm sure there's something here What did you learn from your experience with [00:20:00] MDMA like firsthand that you've taken into your practice as like?
A therapist or a clinician or someone in the community?
Anne Wagner: That's a big question. Also because I think now my experiences of course have like built and grown since then. So like I've had other,
Kev G: how do you mean you've had other experiences?
Anne Wagner: I have. I've had like lots of other psychedelic and MDMA experiences since then.
Kev G: And can you ballpark me in a matter of was this over 10 over 40 do you dare say I'm like, I don't, I'm not trying to put you on the spot.
Anne Wagner: I don't know. Definitely more than 10, but I.
Kev G: So it wasn't just one. It wasn't just like, I got this, I'm going to, but so it's kind of, would you say it's been part of your, your journey and your work as a person, as well as a therapist?
Anne Wagner: Absolutely. Yeah. It's definitely impacted me in a way that I now I'm very judicious with my psychedelic use meaning that I take a lot of time personally to. to integrate and to think about when and where and with whom and how [00:21:00] I'm working with different medicines. But it's definitely an incredibly important tool in my world and it, I think it really helps me be a better person and a therapist for sure and friend and, family member.
Also, having now been a therapist on several trials of MDMA assisted therapy and been in the room with a good number of people who've had really different experiences in their journeys, that definitely has made me a better therapist. In general, I now feel like a psychedelically informed therapist in any type of therapy that I do, and I think particularly because it brings forward in me this ability to really be with whatever the unfolding process is in the room, and that's incredibly important that I am not feeling like I'm having to jump ahead or meet an agenda or, hit a goal.
And yet we [00:22:00] can still do a, for example, a structured therapy to treat trauma. , but I can bring what I've learned and the ethos that we hold in psychedelic assisted work into. Any therapeutic interaction
Kev G: it almost sounds like a similar Mentality to the wildflower metaphor if you've got this capacity for unknown sprinklings of unfolding growth Yet, it's still within a roughly Structured general direction.
Anne Wagner: That's exactly it. That's really cool I keep wanting to get talk about your work at remedy and then there's these there's all these stuff That come up that I'm so interested in like the idea that you're Part of your ongoing practice of becoming a better person includes work with MDMA and maybe other psychedelics.
We could talk about that. So curious about what is, what are the types of containers that you're creating for [00:23:00] yourself? And what is that integration process look like for you? Yeah, I would say the containers that I think about are ones that obviously feel safe. And so sometimes it's, that means it's in jurisdictions where it's legal or in containers that feel really well supported about with like with whom or what the intention or the purpose of it is.
I think that is so central for me and how I feel safe and also Able to go into whatever it is I need to go into with it. I think for me, my relationship to psychedelics is, is personally, very focused around healing and growth. And I know that varies for lots of people in terms of sometimes it's about fun and connection and that's awesome.
And for me, it's, most of my experience is around healing and growth. And yeah, so I think the. I end up trying to create for [00:24:00] myself containers that reflect what I want to create for other people when they're in my clinic and our trials or in our clinical work is ones where they can feel like we've got it, like they don't have to take care of us.
And that they're actually really safe to go into their experience. And so I want the same where it's like, I feel really safe to go into whatever is going to emerge because that's one thing I've learned with psychedelics is you have no idea what's going to come up, not a clue. And it could be the experience of having a hug and a jump in.
I feel like that's the, what it feels like with MDMA. It's you're getting a hug and then you're jumping off the cliff or, you know, fits. psilocybin, it's more maybe you're getting a kick in the pants and then you're jumping off the cliff like it's, depending on the where you're at and what the medicine's helping you with,
Kev G: is your personal growth work often supervised? Are you curating someone to be in the room who's maybe a designated sitter [00:25:00] or a guide for you, or have you done any things totally solo or yeah, how do you view that?
Anne Wagner: I would say mostly with either a group or a guide wouldn't be, wouldn't be a problem.
That I've a little bit in the depth of the pandemic. I was like I'm like, I, There's not, I really can't be in a group at the moment. So I'll try, but there's, I would say for me, it's a very like my work. It all the through line, it's a very relational experience for me, no matter what I'm working with.
I prefer to be in the company of others.
Kev G: Mm hmm. Are There any tips you would have And I'm asking as someone who does have a similar interest as you in the growth aspect of Psychedelics and MDMA specifically and yeah, psilocybin. We're talking about the same things But I'm not in I'm not in a clinical trial I'm willing to take risks in terms of,
you know,
it [00:26:00] being legal in my own jurisdiction.
We do not condone illegal activities here on the podcast, but feel free to take your own risks. Yeah. What are some Things that you might suggest to, to people who are growth oriented, who want to like, just make the most out of their experience and you mentioned integration creating a container for the experience is one thing, and I think people are probably pretty familiar with that.
But what are some things that people could have in mind to, to integrate and really squeeze the most out of, Yeah. Their experience.
Anne Wagner: Yeah. It's a good question because I think this big topic of integration
um,
comes in lots of different forms. And, I hear a lot about you've got it, you got a journal or you need to go on a long walk in nature or take a great bath or something like that, which is all excellent, fine and good.
And. Yeah. Absolutely. Especially, I think, if you're working with it in terms of growth or healing, that a big part of it [00:27:00] has to be making space, like actual space in your life to Be with whatever comes up. And I'm not expert at this for sure myself. Like I regularly think about like, yikes, I should have taken more space or more time because it often can feel like there's this opportunity or this critical period where you can make connections or you can work with something in a different way.
And if you're just jumping back into your life, and especially if you're in a fast paced job or you've got lots of demands in whatever way, family, other things, that you're not going to have that same spaciousness to, for example, feel your feelings when they're coming up. I think that's a big one that also people will think a lot about like how they felt in the medicine session, but then afterwards it's actually a lot of it has to do with.
How you feel afterwards and how you're [00:28:00] working with the experiences and the feelings and the sensations that come up afterwards. I'm a huge somatizer. Like I feel everything in my body. And if I'm wrapped with back pain the next day, I'm like pretty good sign that I need to sit with something or I need to figure it out in a different way.
It's not just because I've been like, lying down for eight hours the day before. It's usually something else. It's something. Psychosomatic that's coming up. So to me, a huge thing with integration is space, spaciousness and allowing that can be really hard for folks. And so also if they're having trouble with that or they don't know how to do that, then having people that they can trust and they can talk to about that and helping them support through that.
So they're not necessarily feeling alone. And I think post psychedelic experience, it's really hard. To sometimes connect with other people who maybe aren't understanding your experience or wanting to interpret it in a [00:29:00] particular way. And that can happen with people either who are very versed in psychedelics or are not very versed.
So there's a little bit of risk on either end. But rather finding someone where you either friend or a therapist who can do integration with you who is not going to Insert or over interpret what's going on or dismiss, and so that they can help you make sense of it, not everyone needs support and integration sometimes people do want to go to therapy, sometimes they don't totally fine, but rather more to do with the process of.
Spaciousness and feeling and openness and sometimes these like things that are suggested as activities can be nice and supporting that
Kev G: Yeah that was occurring to me as you were describing what the function of space is and it occurred to me that like Journaling and bats and walks in nature are just containers for space.
Exactly. These are just modes of creating space Aside from bats and journaling and walks. What are some other ways maybe subtle
or
[00:30:00] or overt that you make space? You
Anne Wagner: Mm I think one thing for me is I need a balance between being with people and being on my own, so there needs to be, I can't totally be on my own and isolate if I veer too far in that direction when I'm trying to integrate.
It doesn't go very well because I'll end up down these rabbit holes in my mind and not have a cross reference to work with. Or, the opposite, if I'm just fully immersed with other people all the time, I don't have enough time to reflect on my own. For me, it's balance between those things and really having to purposely work through balance.
Especially also the few days right afterwards. Having no commitments and so being able to respond to actually right now I'd love to go talk to a friend or right now. I'd like to go be alone and that's amazing But then as it moves forward, it's more about the balance that comes through.
Kev G: Yeah, I love that I love the idea of no commitments And letting that be a [00:31:00] freestyle space for following What your body's telling you or what your intuition's telling you? Like you could still you could feel like going to get a coffee and that could be part of having space Yeah, but because you've listened that's like an organic demand rather than something you've put on the calendar already.
Yeah, exactly I love that. I've got this idea that Yeah, because I feel like this has happened to me that I've like accidentally given myself therapy by taking MDMA in a rave environment or like a really good like party situation where I'm with friends and I'm I feel safe and the environment is stimulating in a way that I like and then Adding a layer of substance on top of it You've got an intactogen The touch within so you're in touch with yourself in a safe space and I feel like there's a lot of insight that can come from Fun And I've learned over time to give, [00:32:00] give like, space after a good party can almost be like a good therapy session in that you've like, created a container to get some really deep insights, whether you were laughing while it was happening or dancing while it was happening or not, the insight's still real.
Giving space for that thing to settle in sounds like an essential for to lock it in Strike where all the iron is hot.
Anne Wagner: Totally. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Like really it could be Any, anytime you're creating an experience like that, having spaciousness afterwards is incredibly important. I even think about going on meditation retreat in the same way and having like, you know, if you're gone for a week in silence and you're going through this deep process, you're still, you're going to need some space afterwards.
You can't just, turn over into something new or, a totally different frequency from where you've just been. And yeah, so the same being like, you can absolutely have like tons of amazing insights [00:33:00] and connection if in a fun environment and then getting to integrate that afterwards being like, wow, I get to soak in what that was like.
Kev G: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Wow. Fun and therapy. Two sides of the same coin. Yeah. Uh, Okay. Let's actually talk about some of these studies. Okay. I'm so curious about Can we start with the couples therapy? I'm so interested in this What? Okay. What is the like overall purpose of the study and then what are some ideas that have become really clear to you about like Relationships and couples that have come out from this work
Anne Wagner: Yeah, so the bigger picture.
So we ran this pilot that's done and now we're recruiting for the larger couple study. So it's happening right now, which is amazing. And the content, the idea behind it is that [00:34:00] couples and actually any close relationship, right? So it's not just limited to romantic couples. It could be, another close family member or really close friend.
But people who are impacted together by the experience of trauma, that they enter a therapy process together. And what that acknowledges, I think, in a lot of really important ways, is that trauma doesn't just impact the individual. It is a process. Definitely not a solo thing, even though it really can feel like that for the person experiencing it.
Their world is impacted by it too, because that person has shifted and changed in different ways and they may change back. They may change forward, who knows what's going to go on, but the impact of it. ends up going far broader than just that person. And often if someone is, has a close other, so usually someone who lives in their home and is really impacted and off, it's usually like a romantic partner who would [00:35:00] be the most impacted.
Because really you, you create a shared reality with a romantic partner where if one person is experiencing the impacts of trauma and the other person's trying to help them. either make sense of that, or they're trying to live a life together where that's really present, the, that person is going to be really impacted by it as well.
And how they are as a unit as how they interact with the world is going to be impacted. So part of the idea of working with two people together is the idea that you're able to impact not only the relationship. So you think of it like in three different ways, like the relationship as a whole, but also working with both people and acknowledging that partner is going to have really difficult impact too on them.
And I think that often gets. Put to the side or ignored and sometimes the impact of the person's trauma can be [00:36:00] traumatic on the other person as well So all that gets acknowledged and you're able to work through some of these functions that are really hard like the idea of It's so well meaning when partners try to make life easier for the person with ptsd Obviously, it's from love that they're doing this.
They're trying to make the world smooth not introduce, Things that are upsetting or rattling or triggering. And what they're doing though, is they're making the world in some ways quiet and smaller for the partner, but then also for themselves and what that inadvertently does. Is it reinforces the symptoms of PTSD because it's the, we're not getting exposed to all the different things and different variations of life that come along.
So when you're working with two people, you can then bring that really to the forefront and go okay what does this actually look like for us? Like, how are we interacting in this way? Or what are we not doing? And sometimes it's a really hard thing [00:37:00] to. Bring the partner on board with going like actually you don't need to do that and they're like, but I need to like I what?
Are you talking about this is I need to protect my loved one? I do and also life will be a lot harder if I don't do that.
Kev G: I don't want to be Uncomfortable, it's inconvenient for my loved one to be upset.
Anne Wagner: Yeah, it's it could be scary It can be overwhelming like it's really it's a lot. And so to be able to You Have a shared understanding and then work towards that That's the key with when we do a a couples or we call dyadic treatment for ptsd And then you add in mdma to that.
Kev G: I was gonna say we haven't even gotten to that part
Anne Wagner: That's just the couples level So then you add the mdma in and then you're offering we do two mdma sessions and we're offering this opportunity then for Folks to sink in to that experience. We do it with both people receive the MDMA. So they're both Wow participating together And therefore [00:38:00] both people are getting access to the healing that can come with fully experiencing those emotions feeling the empathy But the beauty with MDMA is that you stay in this what we call this optimal zone of arousal Where you're not going to get overwhelmed overly activated or under activated, which is a real hallmark with PTSD, right?
So you're able to stay in there, feel your feelings and feel connection. And for the partner to be able to witness that and feel their partner be present and go, Whoa, trauma isn't, you know, exacerbating or not having my, my partner numb out and they're present and they're hearing me and I am, can hear them.
That is incredibly healing for the partner and the person with PTSD, right? So both. Both people are getting that chance that opportunity and it's like they get this up the shared Amazing experience where then they get to have that bonding experience so that we've done this together.
Kev G: That's incredible It's like you're you're [00:39:00] getting to shed The regular, um, attachment and trauma reactions and all of the things that like skew you out of the zone of being able to hear somebody.
You, you put people, you put them both in this place, the optimal zone where they can hear and hear and be heard. And that wow, what do you do to prepare them for that? I think I read that there's some like communication foundations like that you warm people up to that stuff Sounds like it'd be really useful even if you don't plan to do mdma with your partner Yep, but I think even if especially if you do plan what are like some basic communication tools Yeah and tactics that you like warm people up with.
Anne Wagner: Yeah, it's a great question. When we're treating PTSD, these two sessions are embedded in a whole treatment for PTSD, which at the beginning, like you said it focuses on some skill building and some safety building, which is super important. And those are skills, honestly, that [00:40:00] we all need and would have been amazing if we'd all been taught in middle school, how to do these things interact with each other.
And, um, but they're not that simple, they take practice, they take nuance and so some of the things I find really helpful at the beginning that we do in the treatment are, first of all, we try to get an understanding of what do you know about each other's experience?
So what has been shared, what's been disclosed, and how do you feel about hearing about for example, trauma or traumas that are coming up, and that's important to create safety. We also want to understand. This is more from our therapeutic lens, but understand is there any abuse or violence in this relationship?
Is it could be physical, but also emotional. That's really important. And we want to think about the safety of the couple going through this, but in terms of actual skills that we're building, the first is how to be a good listener and how to actively listen and paraphrase [00:41:00] with your partner. And that's important because I think sometimes we think about paraphrasing can feel a little bit trite, but then really it's The point is to have it clear that the other person's heard what you said.
And this is the biggest stumbling block for a lot of people. It's I don't want to say it back because I don't believe it. Someone else has said, but it doesn't matter if you believe it or not. We just need the other person to know you've heard it. Because that's what usually people are fighting up against.
You're not hearing me. You're not listening to me. It's you're not getting it. they may not agree, but to actually say, I've heard and I understand, or like I, I logically understand what you're saying. That is a foundation. So we need that first. And then we also need to understand this difference between modes of communication.
So this difference between trying to problem solve something versus trying to share or communicate about something. And so the [00:42:00] sometimes different relation patterns will get into this stuck place of one person's really oriented towards solving a problem or seeing things as problems to be solved.
And the other person is but I just need you to hear me like I really, I just need to tell you this thing. And so to understand what's happening, kind of name that and go Okay, Do we want to problem solve right now, or do we want to share right now? And just having clarity around that is so useful.
So when we're prepping people before the sessions, we're prepping them on those communication skills, so that when, if they're in the medicine, and they want to communicate with each other, they're able to, be there, be able to say back especially if it's something difficult, go okay, so I've heard you say this.
It doesn't mean they agree, but they're able to say it back and that goes a long way for people feeling heard
Kev G: Hell, yeah. Yeah, so listening and then Basically understanding the difference of intent when you hear these things So like I guess I'm not sure if that's the most eloquent way of saying it But the idea of are we problem [00:43:00] solving or are we?
Are we listening? I learned it in my therapy as channel 1 and channel 2 listening like channel 1 is problem solving Channel 2 is like just wanting to be heard like venting or just expressing. Yeah but like basically having that framework of recognizing that you don't need to agree with Your partner, you just need to hear them and make them feel heard.
. And then you also need to be on the same page about whether you're solving a problem or it's just time to share. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. And then you're ready for MDMA . Yeah. I mean, You want, maybe you wanna talk about intentions and like you went outta bed. Okay, sure. Yeah, of course. And then you set this, you set the setting and Wow.
I think about. All the couples in the world who love to go party together or take medicine like MDMA, like in a shared intentional environment and how, like with just a little bit of [00:44:00] structure can get a lot more out of it. Yeah. Probably.
Anne Wagner: For sure. Or like agreements about what's on the table, what's off the table.
I think that's also really important agreements about touch. Super important, especially when it's partners. Like sometimes there aren't agreements about touch, but then it's if we're doing this in a way that's actually specifically to work through something or You know, because I hear about lots and lots of people who are not taking it in a party context or like a fun way, but rather like we want to have a conversation about our relationship.
We're going to use the tool going like, okay, let's actually talk about the fact, like is, is touch going to be okay in the middle of that? Or like, how are we going to consent like to touch? And so that those types of conversations often are missed or skipped, like when it's a partner, because you're like we interact all the time anyway.
And, but I think it's actually really important to. Help create the safe container so both of you can experience whatever it is You need to experience.
Kev G: Do you do those [00:45:00] conversations come up when you're doing these sessions like specifically around consent with touch?
Anne Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean we have lots of consent conversations when it comes to clinical work with right psychedelics.
Of course. Yeah But then we also have the couples have agreements around touch. And for us, it's very clear that it will always be, like, supportive touch. There wouldn't be any sexual touch in the session between partners. And then they usually, we have them agree to what would feel good or what they can ask for.
And usually most couples are fine with like, if I hold up my hand, then Will you hold my hand or is a hug sometimes going to be okay and then we then they check in in the moment, too
Kev G: Cool, I like even just knowing the concept of supportive touch is like a really great simple frame Yeah, like this is supportive.
Yeah, exactly Love that Are there any patterns or themes that you've seen emerge in your work with couples that would seem [00:46:00] to you to apply to people that don't have trauma or whether, everybody's probably, a lot of people probably have some form of trauma, but are there any themes that you've seen?
that have emerged that you feel like, okay, if everybody knew how to deal with this thing a lot of fights would be avoided or, this one, one area. If only. Yeah. Magic wand for that one. Yeah, do you have a magic bullet? Yeah, that'd be great. No, I guess what I'm asking is like, are there any like relational Insights that have come from witnessing this work.
Anne Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question. I would say Something I think I mean it's everything you see in regular couples therapy shows up in mdma assisted couples therapy and Often it's just amplified, or you see the process more clearly, also because you have a long time with people and you can see things unfold.
But I think a huge [00:47:00] thing that I've noticed is because it's reduced in MDMA sessions is fear, right? And so that often, Our more difficult interactions are fear based because we are scared of that we're going to get hurt, that we're going to hurt someone else, that they're, we're going to get abandoned or we're going to get consumed.
It's a lot of like our core difficulties in relationship come down to something to do with fear. And when you're working with MDMA and your fear isn't as acute. You can sometimes have a conversation about something that's really difficult and would normally really strike that chord in a different way because you're not getting hijacked by your experience of fear.
And I think it's, I always think that this idea we're all like little kids who are, becoming adults and, we could be 70 and we'd still feel that way. And you think about all the needs of a little kid. We still [00:48:00] have all those, and we just often, don't want to ignore want to ignore that.
But a lot of it's ah, this person's the closest person to me, and if there's a threat to them not being close to me because of, I don't know whatever, be it that they might leave, or that they don't understand me, or that they don't care, or whatever that is, it's, there's fear. And and people react in different ways, either by pursuing, or withdrawing, or attacking, or hiding and yeah, so the possibility with MDMA assisted couples therapy, I think is really important to help people work through the things that often fear hijacks the ability to.
Kev G: That's a fantastic insight, because even just knowing that one topic, if you could just work around reducing the amount of fear you feel, or just recognizing the way that fear hijacks your your actions can probably reduce a lot of these. Yeah, maybe, I can't say unnecessary conflicts because everything's organic, [00:49:00] but you could probably reduce the amount of conflict you have if you just work on your relationship with fear.
Yeah, absolutely. Is fearlessness a word you think about? What does that word mean to you, fearlessness?
Anne Wagner: I don't think it's possible to have fearlessness. I think we all need fear. Like I think fear is an important emotion because it's giving us lots of information and I think having fear not always get to be the driver's seat is Actually what we're aiming for so not necessarily fearless, but Fear aware would be.
Kev G: Fear aware, not fearless. That's cool. I wonder, this kind of segues into a topic I wanted to bring up is the idea of working with artists and people who are like growth oriented and not just dealing with like trauma and like healing from something specific, but rather people who like want to [00:50:00] expand or express.
Yeah. And Is there a, is, how does the topic of fear relate to the topic of creativity? Yeah, tell me.
Anne Wagner: Yeah, I think they're intimately related because I think fear is such a a normal process in the creative process. There's fear comes up at all different times. And often it will stymie people from actually pursuing their artistic, either dreams or pursuits or they'll abandon things because of it. I think it's highly related. And I think, I think about that from personal experience, like I've, been involved in different art forms across time. And in some ways to me, Remedy feels like a creative project.
And the. number of times that I get stymied by fear is I'm constantly working with it to be able to be creative on the other side of it. And so I think it's, I [00:51:00] think we also need to acknowledge that's like the block for a lot of folks and fear of also fear of judgment, fear of that people are not going to appreciate our art, people are not going to get it, people are not going to value it.
And I think about, the book, the artist's way is I think it's Julia Cameron's, the author. And that's a whole, it's it's a therapy in a book and it's specifically around trying to move past these blocks, many of which are fear based.
Kev G: Yeah, and in that book too the concept of the inner child, the artist's child is prevalent.
That's exactly what you're, you're, you were saying earlier is that we're all just kind of kids inside and we're reacting and maybe our outer layer is more adult or whatever, we, our feelings are our feelings and fear gets in the way and to be fear aware is to maybe have a chance at sorting it out.
Anne Wagner: Yeah, you got it.
Kev G: Yeah. I love that. I we're starting to get to the end here and there's like a hundred things I would love to talk about. But [00:52:00] maybe Maybe we could just do a couple summary reviews of a couple quick topics, like for the example creativity, you mentioned that you felt like remedy was a creative endeavor.
I'm curious how, what is creativity mean to you? What is, what, how do you, how would you define it? And in what way is remedy a creative endeavor?
Anne Wagner: Yeah. Oh, that's a big question. The first thing that's coming to mind, I'm like, creativity is so important, but I think it's because we're all, we all are potentially creative. I think we all can create and we all do in different ways. , and so sometimes I feel like it's a misnomer when someone feels like I'm a creative or a creative person, but it's more like how we identify and like how we create or use the word create all the time, but like we, we do things or we dream things that.
then take shape or take form afterwards. So I think about it that way that for me [00:53:00] is remedy. Like this kind of a dream that doesn't necessarily follow this particular rubric of this is how you build a clinic, or this is how you I don't know, form a research institute, but rather going I think we'd like it to feel like this, great.
Okay. These are the principles we want to be trying to embody as we're going along. I know I'm having to course correct all the time around that and being able to, for me, it's this process of constantly going, okay, what does it feel like I should be doing? And then what is it that I actually want to do?
And yeah, and I ask myself the question all the time. I don't always, I don't always follow the thing or it takes me a long time to realize I need to shift something or adjust it, but I do, and it's like a constant process. And I think that's the key thing when we think about, Being a creative or an artist is this constant source of generating And then adjusting and then generating and adjusting and that's my [00:54:00] thought on it
Kev G: that absolutely It's yeah, you've making making something new in any one way or the other I've heard creativity defined as the act of connecting two or more ideas Connecting things making yeah putting one thing with another and do making a thing You I love that.
What about what about the idea of love in your work with the couples, like to quote Hathaway, what is love?
Anne Wagner: Yes. Great. I love that. I'm also, I'm working on another project literally called the love project. Right. Um, Which is uh, my friend and colleague Adela France is leading that and we're looking at.
the experiences that people have had profound experiences of love on psychedelics and their stories about that and what comes out with it. Cause I think that's so important and central and people experience that all the time and with psychedelics and in other ways, but it just amplifies it with psychedelics.
And so [00:55:00] with MDMA, like what a tool to remember love, and I feel like it's, that's really been my experience personally, but also What I've seen. It's not like I now newly love. It's Oh, I remember that I love myself, or I remember that I love you or our connection or what that thing is, or I found another layer to it or another understanding of it.
And so it's, that's usually, it's a remembering and a very welcome and usually tender remembering of that.
Kev G: What is the feeling that you would describe as love or that you've observed in others? Just is it? Is it like a functional feeling? Is it one of is there a survival element to it?
Is it one of just enhancing life? Is it like, like, did our, did
our ancestors feel love? Or is it just like a mental concept? [00:56:00] I'm just curious if you've seen any themes or patterns emerge in your work or through your experiences.
Anne Wagner: Yeah, how, I realize, I think my Conceptualization of love probably really covers or it creates the tone for how I think of love for like how I feel it.
It probably obviously impacts how I see it with others, but also what people describe within it. And I think it's a lot of it's this experience that people feel this deep um a connectedness but also a reverence in a way for Anything right and it could be like love of nature or love of the planet or love of humans Or love of a person or themselves and I think I realized that's obviously my [00:57:00] Interpretation of it, but I think that's informed by both my experiences and what I see in other people.
Kev G: Those two words just hit real nice because it's so real. That feels true to me as well. To be, to love is to be, feel connected. To try to imagine loving something and not feeling connected. I don't think that's possible.
Anne Wagner: Or it creates a lot of pain. And, which is also what yeah.
Kev G: Yes. Whole heartbreak. Yeah. I guess one last one last topic just I feel like I'm doing a reverse index of what we've talked about a little bit Cool but with your work with people who have PTSD when I hear that word I Think of like capital T trauma, I guess like I think of war I think of abuse I think of like really like major things and I wonder if In your work and in these studies there's if it is I mean in my Yeah, I'm curious.
Is the work focused on stuff? That's more than [00:58:00] just the big Stuff you hear about PTA because so much of PTSD is around like war vets and stuff like that And I think I'm looking for a more flexible Idea of what PTSD is. So I'm curious are there examples of types of PTSD that you've seen that you would still say hey, that's totally valid.
Anne Wagner: I would say that for our studies that come through Remedy, like people's experiences of what caused the PTSD vary. Greatly for each other.
Kev G: Because PTSD is a result of some sort of trauma. Okay, so you're saying that the causes can vary. Okay, totally. And are you free to share like any examples like what like spectrum?
Anne Wagner: Yeah, in general for sure. So there can be Some of the things you're mentioning, like kind of the things we might think of as being like big T trauma experiences of war or sexual assault, or these things that our minds would go strongly towards, those can for sure be things that people come in with.
I would [00:59:00] say, Maybe it's just where we are or the demographic that we work with or who gets drawn to us, we end up seeing a lot of folks who've had repeated experiences of trauma. And so that means it's often a childhood experience. So they may have had childhood abuse in some way, and it could be some combination of trauma.
Physical or sexual or emotional abuse or neglect. And that is unfortunately way more common in everywhere, but here, then we like to acknowledge there's also experiences where people have been in in adult relationships and abusive relationships where, they're, they may have identified being like, oh, there was a sexual assault or there was.
an instance of physical abuse or whatnot. But there it's usually a much broader picture of abuse that happened as opposed to, necessarily like a single incident event. We also, we have first responders and those, woof, like the amount of trauma exposure that folks have where it's if you're [01:00:00] EMS or your police or your fire like, or you're a 911 responder, like you're going to have so much exposure to stuff that sometimes it can be really hard to be like, this was the thing that caused it, but going like, There was a number of things, but this one sticks out a lot right now in that experience.
So trauma can come from a whole range of different experiences, or PTSD can come from a whole range of traumatic experiences. And also I really want to validate too that I think that sometimes it's hard when people are struggling and they don't have. An event or a sequence of events that meet the criteria, quote unquote, for PTSD to feel like, wait, but my experience doesn't feel valid.
That is not the case. It's like people, you can, you can have trauma symptoms. You can have. the experience of having gone through a traumatic event, even if it doesn't quote unquote meet the [01:01:00] criteria. The struggle is within these trials, we have very specific parameters of people have to meet like certain, Symptom clusters and whatnot and that's just for the studies I would see in practice going forward that What if what people what they've conceptualized what they've experienced is traumatic then we'll be able to work with it with MDMA
Kev G: I love that. Yeah, like outside of the parameters of this study. That doesn't mean that's not valid It's just because for the science and groundwork exactly cool What is next for Remedy?
Anne Wagner: As I mentioned, we are currently launching our large couple study. So that means that we're open for recruitment.
So if people are interested in participating, we're recruiting couples where one person has PTSD and the other person does not have PTSD. It can be romantic or non romantic, but needs to have a really big impact on the [01:02:00] relationship. So think of someone who's a lesbian. Usually like living with you directly impacted.
Yeah. So that's big. That's going to be a several year study. People can find out about it on our website, which is remedyinstitute. ca. And yeah, we're really excited that we're finally at the stage where that's going to be launching. And then alongside that, we are. We're just like so close to being done our other study we've been running, which is an individual trial of cognitive processing therapy, which is an individual treatment for PTSD with MDMA.
We're finishing treatment this month and then it'll be in follow up for a couple months and then the results will be out.
Kev G: Wow big things one one one trial ending one bigger one beginning. Yeah, that's incredible Can I ask? What's something that you can see as someone who? We've established really firmly is at the edge and is constantly pushing the edge What's something that you can see just beyond [01:03:00] the edge that might be guiding you or that you're striving towards?
Whether it's like a future, a future of mental health in Canada or something that you want to see for humanity Like what's something that's like informing where you're going.
Anne Wagner: Yeah Really? I think a lot of it for me right now is seeing Deeper forms of healing for folks and that this is one route for it to go there and to make that something that is known possible.
People think it's possible. People can understand that they can do that and pursue that and having it be normalized that a lot of us need it. And that it's going to be a fluctuating thing over people's life course. It's not Oh, I had trauma and now I. I'm healed and there we go.
And yes, you can definitely not have PTSD anymore, but then other things may happen in life and then we might need another piece of Big healing about [01:04:00] something and that's good and fine. And I think normalizing that, but also encouraging that process of, that we're going to always have to be engaging with our internal world.
And so I see that a different, maybe a zeitgeist or an understanding, which I feel like we're understanding more, but that can, I can see that on the edge. And especially when we're able to offer this in practice in a regular way. And also the decrim movements that are happening that would allow people to be working with this different medicines on their own, I think is also amazing.
And that, will clinically always be there for support for folks if they need it around it, but there's the freedom for people to feel like they can do this on their own, in their own way, in their own time. And then alongside that, also this idea of being able to really open up to and pursue and.
Accept creativity and growth within life. And yeah, if we can, [01:05:00] I think there's so many intersections like reducing grind culture and the need to hustle and all these things like, but rather move towards, no, we can create and generate in a way that's actually feels regenerative and supportive and.
Sometimes psychedelics can help us.
Kev G: Hell yeah. That's so inspiring. That's, that just locks in so much of what you've shared. Thank you for giving us the insights from the edge of what's possible and for bringing the future to the present. Appreciate you coming on and sharing everything you've got. And where can people find out more about you or
Anne Wagner: remedy? Yeah, so we've got Two websites one for remedy the clinic if people are interested in Learning about our clinical work and my bios on there.
It's remedy center. ca spelled the canadian way And then the research our charitable institute remedy institute. ca is where you can find out [01:06:00] information about our trials and our bursary program And then we're also on instagram at remedy. hello.
Kev G: Awesome. Keep seeding those wildflowers
Is there anything that you wanted to say or share before we sign off?
Anne Wagner: Just thank you. What a great conversation.
Kev G: Amazing.
Thank you so much Anne Wagner. Thanks. Appreciate you.
