094 | When Psychedelics Make Things Worse: Navigating Integration Challenges & "Ego Whiplash"
“Psychedelics are a great tool, but definitely not a silver bullet. Psychedelics themselves don’t ease anything; they just show you more clearly what you need to do.”
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Psychedelics don’t always make things better. Jesse’s psychedelic ego death experience cracked Jesse open to feel deeply, which was a new experience for her. After the love and bliss from the experience faded, she was left to process a lifetime worth of repressed pain.
Jesse went through challenges such as ego whiplash, suicidal ideation, social isolation, and depression for months after her psychedelic experience. But it's not all bad: she was able to harness this challenging time as a point of transformation. In this episode, she is sharing the depth of her experience with us, and how she managed to come out on the other side.
Topics Covered:
Jesse’s mindset and intentions before her challenging 5-MeO-DMT experience
The core “unlovable” wound Jesse healed during her experience
Slipping into a depression and panic during integration
Opening the floodgates and processing a lifetime of repressed pain
Coping when coping mechanisms no longer works
Ego whiplash after an ego death
Holding space for yourself during a challenging integration period
Enlisting support + resources and tools to help
Open-heartedness on the other side
Addressing habits and lifestyle changes during challenging integration
Encouragement to keep going if you’re having a challenging integration period
LISTEN
Where to find Jesse West
About Jesse West:
Jesse lives at the intersection of chemistry, consciousness, and community. With a degree in Chemistry serving as her foundational bedrock, Jesse has embarked on a journey that seamlessly integrates science with a deep reverence for the mysteries of the mind.
Currently serving as the Client Services and Operations Lead at Enfold, Jesse brings a unique blend of analytical acumen and compassionate engagement to her role, embodying the spirit of service with every interaction. Jesse infuses her work with a passion for creating meaningful connections and empowering others on their journey towards wholeness.
Beyond her professional endeavors, Jesse's heart beats with a kaleidoscope of passions. A certified yoga teacher and lover of nature and all forms of movement, she strongly believes in the wisdom of the body and the potency of activity for empowerment. Her exploration of psychedelics is not just an intellectual pursuit but a deeply personal quest for understanding the profound potential of these substances to catalyze healing and growth when approached with care and responsibility.
Looking for a professional coach to support you on your psychedelic path?
Look no further! Along with being the host of the Modern Psychedelics Podcast, Lana is a 3x certified professional coach who works with people on the psychedelic path.
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Lana Pribic: [00:00:00] Hey, Jessi. Welcome to the podcast.
Jesse West: Hi Lana, thank you.
Lana Pribic: Let's just start with telling people how we met and how this conversation came to be. So you work for Enfold. The 5MEO Retreat Center and , we had a call about a month ago just catching up on the partnership and all of that and you mentioned that you had your own experience and I wanted to bring you on to the show to share about it with people.
Jesse West: Yeah, I think everybody has their own unique experience and I think in general we're more willing to share the shiny parts than the more rugged,
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Jesse West: aspects, so yeah.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, that was what really piqued my attention when you were sharing because you actually had a really challenging and difficult experience, which, yeah, like you just said, many people don't talk about. So thank you for coming on and being willing to be vulnerable and open and share that with people because I'm sure many people listening have also had really hard [00:01:00] experiences with psychedelics because they don't always make things better right away. Before we get started, do you want to just introduce yourself to the audience and you can include anything that you feel you want to share to just help the listeners understand who you are, where you're coming from.
Jesse West: yeah, totally. My name is Jessie. I work for Enfold. I do a lot of their, sales and operations, but often I work quite intimately with clients throughout their process of getting on boarded and then afterwards and you'll see me at multiple points if anyone were to go to a retreat. But before all that I had gone through my own personal experience with Enfold and got to experience the medicine and also the long integration tail that comes with 5 MeO DMT.
Lana Pribic: What led you to try 5MEO? Where were you at in your life?
Jesse West: Yeah, great question. I started working for Enfold in the fall and I had no intention of doing 5MEODMT. I've only ever heard terrible [00:02:00] things. And it wasn't until, honestly, I was like, this is a scary thing. And it wasn't until working for them and building relationship with both Steve and Austin. and seeing them work with clients and even just speaking with clients before and after and everybody being like, this is something you need to try.
Like one of them literally was like, you need to do this. But more so just hearing about the profound changes that people were experiencing led me to be more open to it. And then one day I just got the call and I was just like, Steve, I want to do a retreat. And so I signed up for one and away I went.
Lana Pribic: I bet they were pretty happy to hear that because I feel like it's probably really important if you're working with clients who are doing the medicine to have the experience yourself. It would just allow you to connect with them so much more deeply.
Jesse West: A hundred percent. It's allowed me to connect so much more deeply with Enfold itself and the mission but to be able to explain um, which I think to like an ethical standard of like what you're really signing up for [00:03:00] and making sure that people do feel very prepared for it because they do quite a deep pre screening process to make sure that like the people that are signing up for it are ready for this type of experience.
And I think that's allowed me to really step into more of that role.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. So you were working with clients. You heard some of their stories. You were seeing the transformations and you thought I think I want to do this. So when you decided to do it, what were the changes that you were looking to make? And what intentions did you bring to the experience?
Jesse West: Yeah, I had started doing therapy quite consistently before all this and had to try large doses of psilocybin and psychedelics, so I went in naively in a way being like, oh, those integrations weren't that crazy I actually only ever have beautiful experiences on psychedelics really connecting with love and the universe and I've never really had a challenging time.
So I went into that thinking, okay it'll be similar. And then my intention going in actually was just to connect with love. I was really feeling stuck in [00:04:00] life. I had done what I thought was The way to do life. Like I was extremely successful before that and in multiple domains.
And I was just constantly doing things. I had a large amount of friends constantly socializing and being told like I'm doing great, but all I could feel was like this deep sadness and like a fake veneer of wow, I really don't even know myself. I don't feel comfortable in my own skin and had been chasing so many Rabbits or whatever the saying is to go and try to find this elusive happiness that they all Thought of which I thought was in the external.
So I went in there just thinking I just want to connect with love and peace and that was it And that's a big intention
Lana Pribic: Yeah, 5meo is definitely a good medicine for that intention. What was the experience like? Can you share a little bit about what the actual ceremony and the retreat was like? What you learned from it and took away from it?
Jesse West: Totally, anyone who doesn't [00:05:00] know n fold itself, It's hard to really put into words the magnitude that property will bring to you Like you can see it online. It looks aesthetically. It just doesn't pleasing and very beautiful. But there's some sort of like energy or powerful like presence when you're there and you feel very grounded.
So when I got there, I felt like more calm. I work remotely for Enfold, so I think that could also like, I don't work at the property very often. So when I got there, that was nice. The actual ceremony, I was really scared to do it because To be honest, I've come from a very corporate background and I was like, how is my boss is going to see me like in such a vulnerable position.
And so I came up with a lot of guarding and very not trusting of it. Okay, where is this going to go? But they do a beautiful job at making you feel even at peace. And for somebody who like does not trust easily. Is super afraid of what people will think and only wants to come off in a very specific light that like steve and austin were able to let me [00:06:00] feel comfortable enough to let that down so I can try to experience the 5meo DMT as authentically as possible and I would say that My trips were really beautiful.
I didn't move, really, at all. Some people move a lot. I just basically vibrated. I think they called me a corpse. Just called me a corpse at one point. I just couldn't move. And I there was, Parts of it that were really hard and like I cried a lot, but I also laughed a lot and really connected to this really deep place of love.
And it came to this thing where I started like yelling in a good way like, my parents love me. They really love me. And I just remember repeating that and like just being so aware that that was the biggest wound that I don't think I realized was I went my whole life, oh my god, I might cry.
Um, Not thinking my parents like truly loved me. Was not planning on the tears
Lana Pribic: that's how powerful 5meo is. Sometimes, even just talking about it brings you right back to it.
Jesse West: Yeah, it was really beautiful and really [00:07:00] grieving that process afterwards of like I went my whole time resisting love like I had memories or like downloads of like I had An ex boyfriend who I was with for five years and just saw wow He truly loved me and how much i've rejected every moment of that You And just seeing how I do that again and again in life was like this like replay of I rejected my parents love from childhood.
That's more nuanced than that, and just reject it. But yeah and just seeing how that showed up in my life was a pattern of rejecting and closing myself off.
Lana Pribic: Wow, that's really powerful to just really feel like, wow, I'm actually truly loved. And how did I not see this before? And I'm sure you were able to see all the ways that showed up for you and how this belief that was subconscious, it sounds like that you're not loved, showed up in your life and how like it showed up in your actions and the way that you operated in the world and the decisions [00:08:00] that you made.
Jesse West: 100%. And I think it all comes down to this core belief of, and I think a lot of us on different levels. Think that we're unworthy and unlovable. And it was so funny how I've gone my whole life blind to that. Cause we were just like a fish in water. You don't know you're in water. I'm like, this is just what life is.
Just like self hatred. I didn't even know that I hated myself. Really. I didn't even know that I didn't feel safe in my own body until after it was like this whole beginning to live again experience after I did five and realizing how disconnected I was to my entire life.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like you had a overall experience that you learned a lot during. So you mentioned to me when we were talking that the integration was really hard for you and that you faced a lot of challenges. What happened immediately after the retreat? And at what point did things start to feel challenging for you?[00:09:00]
Jesse West: Yeah, I would say immediately after the retreat, I just, I think I what I would describe it as it's like a free state. I was just very apathetic and numb. I didn't even think I realized that like I was just not really feeling anything. I felt different for sure. But it wasn't until maybe. A few weeks had gone by that I realized how tired I was and how I just didn't want to hang out with friends anymore, which is very unlike me.
I was constantly filling my schedule up, never really wanted to leave the house. Very unlike me. I used to run insane amounts of kilometers in the morning or move or go to yoga and I was just like, wanted to stay in bed and kind of slipped into a really deep depression. And then just. It just kept getting worse from there started getting panic attacks, was crying all the time, just felt okay, this is it this is if this is what life is going to be like I don't want to live this existence anymore, and it just was like, this completely encapsulating [00:10:00] experience of just, absolute doom and gloom and sadness that was coming out of me.
I just couldn't stop tears from coming out. And it was just like a flood of sadness and pain which seemingly came out of nowhere. But when I finally opened up to my family, they said, when did this start? I remember being on the phone, but I think I've had this my entire life.
I don't think I've ever once allowed myself to, I feel all this pain and sadness and now it's just like, the floodgates are open. And it's just like this raw experience of years and years of repressed pain.
Lana Pribic: Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. I have chills as you're talking about that. So you, so were you blasted open with love and kind of blasted open to the depth of the human experience and all the emotions that are possible within the five MEO experience. And then going back to your life, it sounds like you were [00:11:00] finally able to do that. allowing yourself or able to feel all of the pain and depression and sadness and grief that you had swept under the rug and avoided because you were keeping yourself busy with friends and working out and all of that stuff. Is that kind of what was going on?
Jesse West: Yeah, I I don't know if this is just my own recount of it That's what it seems like to me that occurred. There's different schools of thoughts that I had ego whiplash afterwards, but really what it felt like was I tapped into like pure love and connectedness, felt that and thought, finally, like this is done.
And then coming home to realizing, Oh, I'm still me. I still have all my problems. And I can't hide anymore. I used to have a lot of coping mechanisms that just no longer worked. One of them was like, I loved not loved. I wouldn't say it was love relationship, but I had a strong dependency on food. Like my whole life has been like seen through the eyes of fitness [00:12:00] and food.
And it came to the point where I just would be still doing like binge eating is what it's called. And being so aware of what I was doing, And being like, this isn't even working anymore. Like I can't even numb myself. I'm just like, no matter where I hid or try to go around, it was like this entire painful experience just could not, nothing was working.
So then it just, yeah, then I had to address that.
Lana Pribic: So after five MEO, you went back to some of these coping mechanisms and then realized that they were no longer working. What made you realize they were no longer working? What was different for you?
Jesse West: Yeah, just the acute awareness. They being completely aware of what I was doing. Typically when I would do the coping mechanisms, it's almost as a way to disconnect from your body and shut off. But as I would even just engorge with food, I was like, this isn't, I'm, like, still really present to this and that doesn't feel right.
I was like still connected to my body and I was like, Oh, deep shame about what I'm doing, realizing [00:13:00] I'm not being calmed down or soothed by it. And just actually really aware of every moment I was doing was like, wow, I'm actually just hurting myself.
Lana Pribic: Wow. resonates. Yeah.
Jesse West: Yeah, it was not fun.
Lana Pribic: ego backlash.
Jesse West: Ego whiplash.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Jesse West: yeah, I, from my understanding of it is You have this beautiful experience, your ego kind of dissolves because you feel like you're dying and you come back and immediately your ego gets back on and it's like, that wasn't safe. And it tries to protect you in whatever way it can.
And for me, it was just like, I didn't want to share or connect. So even the next day there's an integration day and they get you to do a group share. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to pass. I don't want to share. Didn't really want to talk to anybody. Just Avoided and closed off and that's what happened even when I went back like I just was like that's not that was too much like that was that's not real and All these thoughts kept going in my head and just closing [00:14:00] myself off from the world because I just felt too I don't know unsafe.
I don't think I was fully aware even that I was closing myself off It just I just was like, oh, I don't want to leave the house anymore
Lana Pribic: Wow. So as you're sharing about like the food specifically and the numbing and then realizing that it was no longer doing what it used to do because you're so aware of it. As you were sharing about that, I had just so many chills in my body because it just resonates so deeply because I feel that I am going through that right now as well.
Same thing. I've always like for me, it's really sugar. I've always known I've had an issue with sugar, but I would just do it and do it. And it would medicate me and it would work. And after five MEO, there was a period of time where I wasn't consuming as much sugar, but now I am again.
And actually this last like month or so these last few weeks, it's been so intense and realizing how much I am harming myself. And I'm noticing that [00:15:00] inner struggle within myself of like, why am I doing this? Yet I'm choosing to. continue doing something that's harming me. It's really interesting. So is this something, you work with a lot of 5meo clients.
Is this something that's very common?
Jesse West: Are common about going back to old habits or
Lana Pribic: just like that. Yeah. That resistance within yourself when you're noticing that the self medication or the coping mechanisms no longer are actually working because you're just like, you have, I guess you have another level of awareness that wasn't there before about what you're actually doing to yourself.
Jesse West: Yeah, I like to think of it like you're just more connected to your body like that which is the awareness You can feel With almost every cell what you're doing. And it's uncomfortable because the whole reason they exist is so to alleviate you from the comfort and I think that's it's common in the sense that You And, please keep in mind I'm no expert, like Steve and Austin [00:16:00] work more hand on hand with integration and whatnot, so I just want to preface all that.
I would say it's common in the sense that, You'll be more aware of it and I think initially it's almost easy not to engage in the behaviors because you're still in like this acute phase of oh, like I'm feeling completely different and then falling back into those habits is very normal. I would say that but not in the way that they help or work anymore..
Lana Pribic: So timeline wise, after the retreat ended, how long were you in this period of feeling challenged? By the experience.
Jesse West: I would say Deeply in that place was about four months, and then I started feeling relief as we went on, and it would be about the eight or nine month mark where I felt like I finally started to land and enjoy life in a more Authentic manner, like where I didn't feel like I was like forcing myself to enjoy or be like, I am [00:17:00] grateful.
Do you know what I mean? When you say the gratitude things, you're like, I'm grateful for this and that. But it's sometimes you're just doing it to remind yourself so you can have a moment of alleviation. But then there's other times where you're like, I am just so grateful. And it didn't have to come from a forced place.
Like I would say that didn't happen until the nine month mark where I was like, Oh, I'm not forcing myself to live in a happy place. Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Okay, so it was about a nine month pretty intense integration process for you So take us through those nine months like what was going on for you? Can you be a little more specific about the challenges that you faced? How you like held space for yourself during that time and just a little bit more about your experience?
Jesse West: Yeah I would say that first came the freeze, the apathy. And with that, when you do invest in such a um, a treatment of 5 MODMT experience or like a process like this, like you really do, even if you say you have no expectations, you have expectations. Like of course you signed on it, you [00:18:00] bought it for a reason, and that reason is that you think that it's going to alleviate or change or whatever.
So I think I was grappling with Telling myself this has worked. I am okay. Like I had tapped in such a beautiful experience. It was amazing. Like the trip was great And I realized my parents loved me and I am I'm good and then it wasn't until maybe a month in where I was like Okay, I'm not good.
I think a lot of that was just my mind telling me I was great and like life is good And then that's when I started feeling really big signs of depression Not wanting to engage with people You crying a lot, having major panic attacks. I'd say it was about two months, it felt like, of just like, basically crying every single day.
And waking up not wanting to get out of bed. Doing cold plunges in the middle of, basically, winter. Here in Vancouver. Because I would be up all night, just thinking. of ways to end the suffering and not trusting myself not to engage in one of those and the only time I could get like a moment of silence is if I dunked my head in [00:19:00] like really cold water and like you know the freeze that you get and I was like oh finally no words I would have a lot of thoughts of okay kill yourself like this is the only way to get over this and there's no way out of this and just dealing with that like suicidal ideation and depression would be my major symptoms.
Lana Pribic: Wow. Wow. So what were the resources or tools that you sought out, if any or were you just going through this alone? What kind of support did you have?
Jesse West: Yeah, I had a lot of support, thankfully. I think number one was this like lesson of, especially if you're somebody who does not like to accept help, which I hate accepting help. It's to me, a sign of weakness. And that's how I used to view it. It's and I didn't ever want people to know that I was like dealing with this.
So trusting that it was okay to relinquish the ego and it doesn't mean [00:20:00] anything to reach out to people. My community, my friends and family definitely supported me during this time. And I'll elaborate a little bit more. Practices such as yoga and just simple walking and just being okay with taking life a little slower and trusting that, that you're okay.
This is just part of a process that eventually will end. And then, the other last thing was doing a lot of reading. I read a ton about existentialism and the universe, and the meaning of life, and listened to a ton of podcasts, and I think that really helped contain everything. So first of all, it was a ton of pain and confusion, and you just feeling like you're not grounded, there's, you don't even know who you are anymore.
And reading those things and listening help just have a large container of okay, this is a normal existential meltdown in a way and that There is some sort of explanation as to like why this is happening and life doesn't inherently have meaning But an awakening is this or [00:21:00] that so that helped for me there, And then reaching out eventually to steve and austin that was hard because You I wonder if other people feel this way, but they're your facilitators, and they're so amazing, and they're so beautiful, and their experience is usually amazing on Enfold, at Enfold, and telling them that you're going through something hard almost felt like a letdown, and that's how I felt.
Lana Pribic: You
Jesse West: Um, But they were yeah And maybe that's how I feel a lot in there's a lot of parallels there I don't want to let my parents down, I don't want to let my family down. In a way they are, like, people that I look up to, so it's just I don't want to let them down. But having them and trusting them and hearing what they're saying that this is a normal process and being supportive there helps, and we have a ton of resources on our website and they'll be able to if you reach out to them, be able to refer to somebody who will be able to help with whatever unique circumstances you're going through.
And then having my friends and family just come over, bring me food sometimes, or go on a walk, even though all I did was, like, sob. [00:22:00] But telling me that it's okay I think a lot of it was like, oh my god, I'm ruining their experience, but they would be like, it's fine this helps me by making sure that you're okay.
And then eventually I went to traveling, which also helped because it was like I needed to get out of this like daily world that I would see, which is like my room and like the habits and places I would go and realize that there's so much more to the life than just your small habitual existence.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. First of all, the fact that you're, Doing this podcast today and sharing your story publicly, like what a testament to how far you've come from someone who was not able to ask for help or show that she was going through something challenging. I mean, Wow, that's amazing progress. So you're in the depths of it.
There's suicidal ideation. You're really struggling with energy, motivation, mood. There's two things there that I want to ask about. So number one, [00:23:00] what was your anchor during that time to hold on to hope and to continue trusting and to not give up on yourself?
My anchor has always been that The end is the end. When I was having suicidal ideation, what I told myself is that's the absolute end. And that is always an option if I really absolutely need it, is to like, end my life.
Jesse West: But until then, I will try what I need to try every single day to try to ground myself. And if that means that the most I can do that day is just get out of bed And make myself food or talk to somebody, then that's what it's going to be. And so I just took my expectations of myself and made extremely microscopic which I think they teach that in CBT cognitive behavioral therapy.
It's called like behavioral activation. Start with really small behaviors and activate those and then compound from there. But I always believed that I did this for a reason. My intention was that I wanted to have a different existence, basically. And the fact that I was feeling all these things and having that [00:24:00] deep feeling of like flashbacks of like me as a kid and being in pain and being like, wow, it was really sad during that time.
It gave me hope that this was all happening for a reason. And I'm a chemist by trade. I've studied science. I at first was very resistant to this idea of, Something that cannot be explained by a scientific method, and I was like, at first I was like, no way. It's metabolized within three hours. It has nothing to do with that.
This is woo woo. And then slowly accepting the process of like, this isn't real. This is 5 M E O D M T. That is the only thing that changed in my life that caused me to feel all this stuff. So I just held out hope for my intention from the very beginning, that I'm like, I wanted a change. And while this is not what I imagined, it is a change.
Because I am forced to deal with it, so. Um, that was what anchored me. Don't know if that's very helpful for people, it wasn't some happy mantra.
Lana Pribic: like a trust in yourself trusting that you did this for a reason. And that [00:25:00] there's going to be a point to it.
Jesse West: For the most part, yeah.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. So number two. Do you think that the existential crisis, existential breakdown, and having to literally accept the love and support from those around you as part of your integration, because that was the message that you got in the ceremony. I am loved, I am supported. And then actually integrating that was asking for the help, asking for the love and being shown and actually accepting it. What do you think?
Jesse West: Yeah, I'm smiling because
Lana Pribic: you're smiling big.
Jesse West: No because okay I just want to first say that like I am nowhere near this whole like self acceptance of love and me and whatever But i'm like a hell of a lot further than i've ever been and i'm trying to read with tara brock of radical acceptance and i'm just like damn I do not radically accept a lot of parts of me but it's a process but if I do really look back and
Lana Pribic: in that.
Jesse West: Yeah it's so hard.
It's like it's just so much easier to [00:26:00] Hate yourself. I meant to like, be like, I love this part of
Lana Pribic: It is and it isn't,
Jesse West: Yeah. Yeah.
Lana Pribic: ways it isn't, but yeah, carry on.
Jesse West: For me that's like how I normally, for me by that I just want to say if you had ever been productive, or through negative reinforcement, it's so hard to change that.
For me, the reason I always excelled in school was because I was just like, Like, it was just like a negative thought process that kind of got you whipping the horse to get the cart moving and the opposite of like, if you just truly accept and love and change out of that, that will also facilitate change.
It's such a paradigm shift that I'm like, coming around to, but I do catch myself falling back into negative thought patterns. But I digress. The actual reason I was smiling is because Just, I'm so proud of my family. They held me with such care and I don't know who I'd be without them right now.
And I used to not, I refused to see my mom for a couple of years [00:27:00] and really never connected with my family. Just like really wanted like even at family events. I just wanted to go to bed at 8 p. m And I just was like, okay, I gotta go. I'm gonna go into my bedroom downstairs when I was younger And now it's like I went on a family vacation I've had Christmas and family vacations with them since and they were such loving Experiences and I had the best birthday which I normally cry every single birthday and tell them it like usually hate that And it was just like this most loving birthday with my family in Mexico, and it was just like wow They do love and care for me and the support that they've been showing me is a testament to the change They've done as humans, but also to a To the testament, to I've been able to like, open my heart to them and really truly feel like when my mom says she loves me, that okay she loves me.
That. And then the other one is all the time I've never, Been able to like really hold down a relationship in the sense that I was constantly was just like leaving people just Like on like I just like two months over next [00:28:00] I've had longer relationships But it was never fully engaged in a healthy way.
And I would say like now I've been able to For the first time really like deeply open my heart to somebody and it's not been easy But it's been super beautiful to watch What I would consider a very healthy relationship of communication, care, support, security, even just come to fruition, and that's something I don't think I even conceptualized in my mind was possible and that's like kudos to like me and to him, but I was just like, Wow, if it wasn't for 5.
meo, who knows if I would have been able to even. address that the way I used to date and really be private and closed off was even a problem. I thought it was just kind of like, this is cool I'm in my 20s. But realizing, wow, I'm deeply unfulfilled when I do this.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Wow. Congratulations on getting there. That's beautiful.
Jesse West: yes, thank you.
Lana Pribic: Opening yourself up.
Jesse West: Yeah. Steve [00:29:00] has a thing he says And I think with psychedelics in general, people think it's like, the phrase like, it's like ten years of therapy. And the way he reframes this is, to kind of go in with that expectation is, sure it is 10 years of therapy, but think of compressing that 10 year time frame down to months.
So you're gonna have to like, go through all that. It's not like you're just like, okay, 10 years of therapy, done, the outcome is here. It's 10 years of therapy, compression of time, and you're just gonna have to deal with all the pain, the emotions. That would have normally have come up with in a very short amount of time and it's intense and you have to be ready To experience that so it's while I'm super happy that I'm at the place that I'm at it wasn't without extreme Pain and intention that I had to go through
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah, I know that's a really good way to put it and also really good like disclaimer for people who do want to do a really intense dive with psychedelics, such as doing 5meo. Yeah, you gotta be prepared for [00:30:00] that period of integration. And I'm in the middle of it right now.
And yeah, it is. There are highs but there are also lows like I'm feeling so validated right now from hearing you share your story. So thank you. And I know that the listeners will be as well. So yeah, it's like the process is initiated by the ceremony by the retreat. And then it like this is what we mean when we talk about integration especially with these like really high dose, high impact experiences. Yeah.
Jesse West: 100 percent I've been humbled by 5MEO DMT, but I also want to caveat all that with, I've also seen multiple guests come through and never have this type of experience. So while I think it's a typical experience for those with extreme repression of like grief or anger or pain or trauma in their past, it's definitely not something that everyone has to go through.
So in case someone's listening to this and was like, Oh, I don't want [00:31:00] to do 5 because of that. Just really think about your own unique circumstances and what your past was like.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. And these extreme challenges are. Rarer definitely much more rare, but also important to know because hey, it could be you right? And we just got to know what we're signing up for I think we need more psychedelic literacy on these challenging psychedelic experiences I know for the first two years of doing this podcast I just ignored the challenges and The fact that a lot of people Really have a hard time and a lot of people really struggle and I'm just wanting to bring more light and awareness to that.
So you were going through this really intense therapeutic healing process, existential meltdown, as you called it. What were some of the changes that you slowly started making over time? For example, did your relationship with binge eating change? Did your relationship with some of those like coping mechanisms that were no longer working for you? Change?
Jesse West: Yeah, I would [00:32:00] say my two biggest things that if I had to change would have been binge eating. That's a big coping mechanism and deep amount of shame there. The fact that I'm even saying this on a podcast, that's something that I used to have a lot of shame around. And the other one would have been about like this negative cycle of thinking.
The binge eating has definitely subsided. I would say that I still deal with this like framing of like food and exercise. But it no longer consumes me. Like I can go out for dinner and, or eat a muffin and not feel like my life is, like I might as well eat all the muffins or feel really like strict around food.
I would say that I don't typically feel this like a giant compulsion to binge eat as much anymore. Maybe like once every eight months. That's what I'm giving just cause if it's extremely stressful, that's like my, that's the only way I know how to Disregulate myself. But for the most part I wouldn't say that I really struggle with binge eating.
And how I even [00:33:00] started addressing that was, one, becoming aware. Of what I was doing. So I got this whole new refound awareness and connection to my body. But then I started actually going to like I went to a group therapy for it which actually helped a lot is like they say healing happens in community and seeing other people Share their story realized like, oh, okay, like i'm not a filthy pig Those are words I would use.
And it is more normal than we think it's just something that like It isn't so like accepting and hearing other people talk about it allows you to have more compassion for yourself. And I would say the negative thought cycle is still occurring. It's not like it goes away overnight, but By doing like a lot of reading and catching and awareness.
I honestly think a lot of it just comes back to awareness It's like just be aware of what you're thinking And in moments of crises in my head It's almost like I can't even slow my mind down enough to even know what I'm thinking and there's just like [00:34:00] Loops of thoughts that keep going down So I've lately have been like how do I can just slow down to even just listen to one of those sentences?
And just calm my body down. So the other day after swimming, I was like in this like cycle in my head and I was just like, okay, we're going to sit in the car and just be like, what can we slow our brain down enough to like, even just make sense of one of the things that are going on in my head.
And I think that like slowing down and acceptance and awareness is how I've been approaching most things that I want to change at the moment.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Jesse West: Yeah.
Lana Pribic: that you're definitely not alone with the binge eating. I Am also guilty of that. So that's two people on this podcast that have or are struggling with that. I mean, I can't even Jesse I can't even buy like my kryptonite is Haagen Dazs ice cream. Like I if I buy one of those like it is gone, like
Jesse West: Oh my god,
Lana Pribic: not going to be like put back in the fridge and saved for [00:35:00] later.
No, so I totally get it and I appreciate you
Jesse West: Yeah, it's crazy but like it will come to a day where you can and you celebrate those small wins And there's some days that you do and it doesn't work out you eat the whole thing. It's okay I was talking to my guy friend about this and he's just like I think because he's like He thinks it's a thought process that goes behind it He's like i will eat an entire tub of ice cream and i'll think about it Or think like negative thoughts about it, but i'm like it's the compulsion you feel where you're doing it And you're not enjoying it anymore, but you can't stop and that's what i'm like.
That's what binge eating is It's like where you blank out and it's this compulsion Of like it's never enough even though you're like this is enough So I get it But Start celebrating the small wins. I don't know. I think accepting where you are is where you are has helped me a lot, too. It's I can't rush to the finish line, but like I'll accept this is where I'm at and this is the best I can do.
And yeah.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Beautiful. So at what point did things start feeling [00:36:00] better and lifting for you and what do you think helped you lift out of the challenges?
Jesse West: Yeah, I can remember it was like May. I did my retreat in early February. May was when I first felt like a small relief and
Lana Pribic: or?
Jesse West: of 2023.
Lana Pribic: Oh, okay. So this is recent.
Jesse West: This was last year yeah. It was in like October of 2023 was when I really felt Oh, I'm back to normal and now I have a lot on my integration plate, as Steve would say.
But to do it in a sober way I don't think more medicine equals better. I am just like working with what I have and realizing, Oh, I have a lot to work with in this sober reality. I felt better in, a little bit in bay. Honestly, I'm privileged to say that I was able to go on a trip to Costa Rica by myself and just spent two weeks just, Sitting with it and just trying to like decompress and that was really a big [00:37:00] turning point for me.
I had already started to feel better but getting out of my routines and of the home that I live in and the work that I do and the things that I define myself with allowed myself some space to like just relax and I think a lot of it is just harder does not equal better. So it's sometimes we're so strange like, if only we meditated more and we did all these gratitude journaling every day, then, I would have been better.
But it's actually, sometimes it's just allowing and being and just trying to enjoy the small things is what allowed me to really start to crawl my way back into like, contentment
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Jesse West: or stabilization.
Lana Pribic: That sounds like a really, honestly level headed and grounded approach to doing this hard work and navigating through the challenges.
Jesse West: Yeah, I had no idea that it was this much work. I was always a proponent of therapy, but I now realize, psychedelics to me, the way I look at it, is it's a great tool when needed, but it's definitely not a silver bullet, which I always rationally knew, but [00:38:00] now I'm like, oh, I get it.
These experiences allow you to work back into your normal reality in a way that you would not have been able to have that perspective, but the work is still there. It's not like it eases anything. If anything, it just shows you more clearly what you need to do. And you have to be present to do that work because it's so easy to disengage and go online and scroll and not think about your problems, but think about your problems while you're scrolling.
It's a strange thing. We do.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah, or at least it's going
to be subconsciously looping in the background there while we're trying to numb it. Looking back on the challenging period of time, what did you learn from that? What are some lessons that you are taking away from that
Jesse West: to sound so hippie, but all I can think of is and. A lot of clients will say this afterwards, like, all you need is love, but it's like, all you need is love, and if you just [00:39:00] approach things with love, Things get easier realizing we're all connected. Self love is super important. But also loving others.
And my biggest learning lesson to calm my defenses. I'm a very defensive person. I'm always on edge. I'm always like scanning to see if there was going to be trauma or negativity or something bad was going to happen is just understanding that actually we're all innately good and that we don't actually have that much control when we do that.
So if I can just look at things with love in space , and I see that the person's not going to hurt me or is not saying that out of a place to like necessarily manipulate me or something, then I'm actually able to engage better in that. Life. So a lot of it was just like love and , assuming the best in other people so that I can like, learn to love and trust people and connect with them.
Lana Pribic: I can't help but to notice that was the exact intention that you had for the 5MEO experience. Just took a lot longer to get [00:40:00] there, didn't it?
Jesse West: Yeah. And I also people would say on the outside, like I have a huge friend group and I love them so deeply, but I would say that I don't To me, I never understood why I had a good friend group. And number two, I never understood why people wanted to hang out all the time, even though I did it as a way of just like buying time, but it was never there.
But then after now, I'm just like, Oh, I get why people hang out. Like it's fun to connect on a genuine level. You don't have to go in there like rigid, pretending who should I be for these people? If I'm just me, they still love me for me. And it's not like I don't have to be a chameleon. So it's just wow, nothing's changed, but everything's changed.
Lana Pribic: totally, yeah. yeah. and people can't love you unless you are showing up as yourself because otherwise they love a version of you that isn't you, though it's not Not really
Jesse West: That's not you?
Lana Pribic: Yeah. That's a
Beautiful lesson. So for people who are listening, who are maybe navigating a challenging integration experience [00:41:00] or, post ecstatic blues as a Jules Evan calls it, what words of advice or wisdom would you offer to them and how would you encourage them to keep going?
Jesse West: One thing really depends on like how bluesy they are. One is reach out to somebody. I don't care if it's a healthcare professional or your internet or a friend or a family member. But I think just sometimes reaching out is the basis of what I think Brings a lot of joy and is the first part of healing is connection with somebody If you're really struggling with like you can't You're just really in your head and you feel Activated all the time one practice that really helped me was set a timer for 10 minutes and journal everything that just comes to mind And just like brain dump like don't even think about it And I found after that I felt a lot of clarity and calmness to be able to be like, okay What do I actually need in this moment?
Because I think sometimes You We actually have no idea what we actually need. We just feel so overwhelmed with everything. And you're pushed and pulled and your head by into so many [00:42:00] different directions that taking those 10 minutes to do that allowed me to be like, Oh, I think right now all I need is actually to go on a walk.
Or I think right now I need to go meet a friend for coffee or a decaf coffee. So yeah, I don't know if that's helpful, but
Lana Pribic: definitely.
Jesse West: help me.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, when you said the 10 minute brain dump, I was like, Ooh, I should do that after we get off this call. That's a really good tip. Yeah.
Jesse West: I just don't know what these journal prompts are. And sometimes I'm like, I look at a journal, I have no idea what to do. So I just set a timer and just said, whatever comes up. And I was like, wow, that helps. Cause I think the thing that stops me from journaling sometimes is I don't even know what to journal about.
And sometimes I even start the sentence like, I don't even know what to journal about. And then suddenly I just the free flowing comes out. And I think the act of using a pen to paper. Incredible. It doesn't do the same type of thing for me when I type it out, but if you're really good with like computers and, [00:43:00] or not computers, I'm fine with a computer, but if you, that's how you, I don't know, process information, go ahead.
But for me, like writing on hard paper does it.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. There's something about it that helps focus your thoughts and yeah, just away some of the noise and like really focus in on what is going on in there. So yeah, that's a great tip. You said that you have a full integration plate.
What's integration looking like for you these days now that you're on the other side?
Jesse West: Self love, baby. No, but pretty much just reading Tara Brock and listening to a lot of her podcasts, and recently been very called to just randomly meditate, and that's Not me at all. I don't meditate. I don't do breath work, which is hilarious because I work for n fold, but lately I'm like, I just need 10 minutes to meditate or I did have my called my friend who's a meditation Leader and he led me through meditation So right now it's been a lot about just like sitting and trying to become aware of my thought process so that I can Like, have more [00:44:00] compassion and self love, so that I can start to engage in this world from a place of wholeness, instead of thinking that I constantly need to change something in order for me to feel whole.
So that's currently my integration plate that doesn't that doesn't, that It surprisingly takes up a lot of energy because changing those thought processes, sometimes you don't even, you're not even aware that's like happening and that you're looking at the world in that regard. So
Lana Pribic: Yeah the work really never ends, but it's just important to continue engaging in it. So it sounds like you're really doing that. And looking back, what are you most grateful for about the whole experience, the good and the bad, the ups and the downs? Oh, yeah. Yeah,
Jesse West: I just, I, when I, when anyone asked me those things like most grateful or most whatever, I would just go, whatever comes to mind first. And the first [00:45:00] thing that came to mind was my mom. , and my dad, of course, but my mom specifically I had a very tumultuous relationship with and just, yeah, surprisingly that's the thing that came to mind.
She's been a really key player in my whole getting my life grounded again.
Lana Pribic: She's probably the person in the world that loves you the most out of everyone. So yeah.
Jesse West: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
Lana Pribic: Nothing like mama's love. Beautiful. Is there anything else that you feel inspired to share with the listeners today?
Jesse West: Just in general with psychedelics, just really think deeply before you engage in large doses. I think it's different than recreational use, but of course with recreational use. And I truly believe that you'll get a strong calling, and you'll know that calling is a genuine calling. There's that calling where you feel like you need to like, do something right away.
But if it's like a true calling You'll be able to have some space to wait to take to embark on that journey. And [00:46:00] I just think sometimes a lot of people rush into psychedelics and are left with, Whoa, what was that? And unclear of like where to go from there. So I would just like to preface that they're serious.
Endeavors and experiences that could really alter the way you see the world. And if you're ready for that's amazing. Go on and tackle it. But truly feel like you're in a stable ish place to be able to do that.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. I'm getting more and more passionate actually about preparation. There's a lot of focus on integration, but yeah, the prep work, and I love working with clients also to help them prep. It's so important as well, that prep work really addressing your expectations and yeah, it's
Good advice for people. Thank you so much, Jesse, for sharing, for being vulnerable. And I'm just celebrating you so much for doing this, because it sounds like a couple of years ago, you wouldn't have even entertained the idea of sharing your story in this [00:47:00] way. Oh,
Jesse West: you have a beautiful way of letting people also feel very comfortable sharing. And I think that if it was anyone else asking, I don't know if I would have, but yeah. Heh heh
Lana Pribic: This is going to be a great service to listeners. Thank you for listening, everyone, and we'll catch you in the next episode.
