066 | Psilocybin Mushrooms for Women's Mental, Physical and Spiritual Health w/ Jennifer Chesak
“Estrogen, the main female hormone, can affect the serotonin receptor binding. So when you’re doing a psilocybin journey, there may be an impact there. It may matter where in your cycle that you use psilocybin.”
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Jennifer Chesak is an award-winning freelance science and medical journalist, editor, and fact-checker based in Nashville, Tennessee.
She earned her master of science degree in journalism from Northwestern University’s Medill. And her work has appeared in the Washington Post, Healthline, Better Homes and Gardens, The Daily Beast, B*tch, and more.
Her most recent book is The Psilocybin Handbook for Women: How Magic Mushrooms, Psychedelic Therapy, and Microdosing Can Benefit Your Mental, Physical, and Spiritual Health.
Her mission here as a journalist stems from being a woman who has been fed up with women being left behind by the medical system. In this episode she shares some of the events that led her to psilocybin, and writing this book.
Jennifer actually interviewed me for the set and setting chapter of this book, so you can find me in chapter 10! I wanted to bring her on the show to share everything she’s learned while writing this book. She has a wealth of information from how to microdose and trip sit to understanding the latest psychedelic research, and incorporating indigenous wisdom.
The Psilocybin Handbook for Women is a resource for everyone, although it features information specific to those assigned female at birth—because psychedelics may have different effects and applications across the sexes.
Topics Covered:
Why do we need a book on psilocybin for women?
Health condition women tend to self-treat with psilocybin
Ways psilocybin affects women differently than men
How psychedelics affect the menstrual cycle
Can psilocybin regulate the menstrual cycle?
Microdosing mushrooms and the menstrual cycle
The optimal menstrual phase to have a mushroom journey
Two Eyed Seeing: Bridging science and ingenious wisdom
Psilocybin for people who are breastfeeding or pregnant
How parents are managing working with psychedelics
Can psilocybin boost your sex life?
Sexual abuse, safety and consent in the psychedelic space
“ So I grew up in the D.A.R.E era and the war on drugs. All of that has presented an incredible amount of harm and stigma on substance use, whether that’s cannabis or psychedelics. And if we openly are talking about these things with our children, they feel comfortable coming to us to then discuss when they are considering experimenting.”
LISTEN
“According to Hillary Agro, ghere is no evidence of harm to the fetus in pregnancy while using psilocybin. And she’s leaning on this indigenous wisdom.
In western science, we don’t have evidence that it’s not harmful either. Because we just don’t do studies on pregnant people for obvious reasons.
But I think the thing that really is important to consider is that the health of the pregnant person is extremely important. So if you have somebody who is struggling with their mental health, it is beneficial to treat a mental health issue in some way while that person is pregnant.”
Things Mentioned in This Episode:
Where to find Jennifer Chesak:
Jennifer Chesak is an award-winning freelance science and medical journalist, editor, and fact-checker based in Nashville, Tennessee.
She earned her master of science degree in journalism from Northwestern University’s Medill. And her work has appeared in the Washington Post, Healthline, Better Homes and Gardens, The Daily Beast, B*tch, and more.
Her most recent book is The Psilocybin Handbook for Women: How Magic Mushrooms, Psychedelic Therapy, and Microdosing Can Benefit Your Mental, Physical, and Spiritual Health.
Looking for a professional coach to support you on your psychedelic path?
Look no further! Along with being the host of the Modern Psychedelics Podcast, Lana is a 3x certified professional coach who works with people on the psychedelic path.
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Lana Pribic: [00:00:00] I am here with the wonderful Jennifer Cheick. Welcome to the show.
Jennifer Chesak: Thank you for having me.
Lana Pribic: It's funny cuz I did a poll a while ago on Instagram and I was like, what substance do you guys want me to talk about more? Cuz I talk so much about iboga and ayahuasca
Jennifer Chesak: Welcome.
Lana Pribic: and like half of the people who voted said mushrooms.
So I think this episode is gonna be much loved and people are waiting for an episode like this. So I'm really looking forward to it.
Jennifer Chesak: Yay, me too.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. So to start, can you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell people how you got interested in the world of psychedelics?
Jennifer Chesak: Absolutely. So I'm Jennifer Cheick and I'm a medical journalist and a fact checker, and I wrote The Psilocybin Handbook for Women, and it just seemed so I had started writing about some, about psychedelics for various publications as a freelance journalist. And I'm, frequently writing about women's health, which is a huge passion of mine in terms of my [00:01:00] journalism work.
And it just seemed like a natural fit to bridge the two psychedelics and women's health, especially since we really just need accurate information out there regarding the female body, because often the mainstream medical system leaves us, leaves women behind. So really wanted to focus on just the female body.
Obviously I'm not trying to be. Like, I'm not trying to exclude anyone, but again, we have very specific context in terms of using psilocybin as women. Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Absolutely. Yeah, I think something like this was much needed and you were really inclusive in your writing to include non-binary individuals as well. So I know you're definitely not trying to exclude. Anyone, and your book was so well researched. It was so well researched. I can see now that you are truly a fact checker.
Every line just had so much, so many facts in each sentence. Can you tell us what I think you touched on it a [00:02:00] little bit, but just getting deeper into this idea of like why a psilocybin specific book for women specifically.
Jennifer Chesak: Absolutely. It, it was interesting when I started digging into the research, I learned that more women report using some psychedelics. Than what men are using. That sort of surprised me. But then when I dug a little deeper, the surprise went away. And the reason for that is because it seems like more women are turning to psychedelics to self-treat.
So for things like ptsd, trauma and anxiety, depression, and then anything related to chronic pain. So women are turning to psychedelics. To self-treat, whereas a lot of times men are using psychedelics in a much more recreational aspect. Now that's not true for everyone. It's just what came up in this very specific global drug survey that I looked at.
And I guess the thing that doesn't surprise me is that women are turning to psychedelics to self-treat. And the reason that does not sur. Prize me is because the mainstream medical system often leaves women behind. They were [00:03:00] largely excluded from early stage clinical trials until about the 1990s.
And I was a teenager then, which just this blows my mind that women were not included in clinical trials. And if we wanna dig a little deeper into what are the ramifications of that, the timeline and the statistic and the fact that I like to throw out is this, so to put it into context, so men had a drug for male sexual dysfunction in 1998, and we're all familiar with what that is.
That's Viagra. That's when the FDA approved Viagra, 1998. At that point in time, the mainstream medical system or just really everyone in general didn't even have a full, complete picture of what. The clitoris looks like, because there's lots of internal structure to the clitoris. That didn't happen until 2005 when a urologist did some MRI work on, study and learned the internal structure.
So in 2005, we finally find the clitoris, right? And then if you. Think about that a little further. When did women finally get a [00:04:00] drug for female sexual dysfunction? That didn't happen until 2015. So 1998 Viagra 2005, we learned about the clitoris. 2015 women finally get a drug for female sexual dysfunction.
And just to put that in even more context, the the statistic on, or the prevalence of female sexual dysfunction in. People of reproductive age would be 40% that goes up to 85% for people who've reached menopause. This is something that dramatically affects women, but yet the mainstream medical system has completely left us out of the picture until 2015.
That's insane to me. So it makes. Sense that women are turning to psychedelics to, self-treat. And I felt like we really just need accurate information out there regarding safety logistics, which you very much helped me with for your beautiful interview for the book. And and then just context that are very specific to the female body.
So yeah, that's a nutshell.
Lana Pribic: That's wild. Yeah. Wow. [00:05:00] What did you find out about what kind of conditions women tend to self-treat with psychedelics and psilocybin form?
Jennifer Chesak: Absolutely. It's it's depression PTs d and then chronic pain conditions. I'm hearing a lot from people who have premenstrual dysphoric disorders. They're turning to psychedelics. Especially magic mushrooms to microdose and and then we can talk about that later in terms of the, how it affects the cycle.
But yeah, so a lot of things like that that affect women differently. So for example, I, in chapter 11, what I did as part of my research was I dug into any condition that either only affects the female body dis or affects. The female body disproportionately or affects us differently. And so one example of differently would be with smoking cessation.
Women actually have different nicotine receptors than men. And so when they're trying to quit, Smoking, it's different. Yet all of [00:06:00] the cessation products out there re have to do with the nicotine receptor. And so psilocybin is now being studied for smoking cessation and it seems promising, especially for women because they have a diff more difficult time quitting because of this difference in the nicotine receptors.
So what I did was, I, again, I took all of those conditions and then I tried to see is there a study out there where we're seeing that psilocybin is being, Studied for this type of condition, or maybe there's an overlap. An example would be, so menopause isn't a condition, it's just, life, but a symptom of menopause would be depression, and so can psilocybin treat depression.
We were certainly seeing promising results with that. So I did that in chapter 11. It felt like this chapter that would never end like the writing of it because there was so much to dig into. But I'm really glad I did because I, I really compiled all that research that we have so far.
Lana Pribic: that's fascinating about the nicotine receptors. I had no idea. And that does make sense why women have a harder time quitting. I actually quit [00:07:00] smoking cigarettes and I shared this pot in a previous podcast episode on an L S D trip yeah. Yeah and it worked. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me that psychedelics are being studied for that as well.
What other ways does psilocybin affect women differently than men?
Jennifer Chesak: Yeah, so I'm hoping the researchers continue to study this because we're just getting the tip of the iceberg right now. What we're learning is that estrogen, so the, main female hormone, of course men have estrogen too, but that hormone can affect the Binding the serotonin receptor binding a little bit.
So when you're doing a psilocybin journey, there may be an impact there. And so it may matter where in your cycle that you use psilocybin. And of course there's context for potentially helping with menstrual irregularities, and we can talk more about that. But in a nutshell, it just really seems so there's been some surveys out there where women tend to have, can tend to lean towards having.
I shouldn't say [00:08:00] they tend to lean towards having worse trips, but it's more prevalent in women to have a bad trip. Now that's not to say that we can't set ourselves up for the best trip possible. We absolutely can. So it's not guaranteeing that you're going to have a difficult trip, it's just, it seems like women are more susceptible and they, the researchers think this has to do with the binding of the female hormones.
So again, it may matter in your cycle when you take psilocybin.
Lana Pribic: So interesting. And what about the entourage effect? Can you talk a little bit about that, that you spoke about in the book? And obviously there's so much more details about everything you're talking about in your book, but I think this is gonna give people a good overview and they can read more about it.
Yeah.
Jennifer Chesak: It seems like again, that our hormones that are related to the menstrual cycle may actually have this entourage effect. And I think people are more familiar with the entourage effect in terms of talking about cannabis. So if we look at the different cannabinoids in cannabis, we've, there's so many, but let's just talk about two, like t, h, C and c B, D, those [00:09:00] two cannabinoids.
Seem to work really well together and to produce beneficial effects. And so that is what I mean by an entourage effect. And it seems like the female hormones, whether that's estrogen or progesterone may have this same entourage effect. Maybe there's a beneficial effect when we're at a certain stage in our cycles and maybe there's a less beneficial effect.
There could be the opposite of the entourage effect as well. So researchers have been studying. How does, how do psychedelics in general affect the menstrual cycle and what they did there's two researchers out of Johns Hopkins. Her one is Dr. Natalie Cassian, and another one is Dr.
Sasha Ka Nide. And they're fabulous. They're studying all of these things related to the female body and psychedelics, but they did some case studies and there were three women, I think two of them took. Psilocybin, whereas another one used a different psychedelic. So I focused in the book mostly on the two women that took the, took psilocybin [00:10:00] and I think one had premenstrual dysphoric disorder and the other had polycystic ovarian syndrome, so pm d and P c o S.
And what they found was their cycles came a little early after using psilocybin and their periods became more regular after a time of where they were experiencing a lot of I irregularity. So there seems like there's some potential there for psilocybin to regulate the menstrual cycle and we're, and there those researchers are digging a little deeper and going further.
This was just some preliminary reasons. Search. But if you're wondering about the mechanism there, because I think a lot of people are like how does that even work? The menstrual cycle occurs along what's called the hypothalmic pituitary gonadal axis. So the HPG axis where we've got the hypothalamus, the pituitary gland, and the ovaries working in concert and a feedback loop.
So when during your cycle, when one hormone kicks off, it tells another hormone that it's time to be released and all of that just. In a layman's terms nutshell [00:11:00] there. So you've got that axis. And then we also have our stress response axis, and so that is called the hypothalmic pituitary adrenal axis. So you've got the HPG for the menstrual cycle, the HPA, for this stress response.
And of course these two stress these two AEs. Overlap via the hypothalamus and the pituitary gland. And so we already know that stress can lead to complications with our menstrual cycle. And the menstrual cycle can impact our stress response. We can get stressed out during leading up to our periods or during them.
And so we know there's overlap there. And researchers are thinking that is also happening when we're doing psilocybin journeys. Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, that reminds me when I interviewed Dr. Jim Fatman, who I'm sure you know all about he was on the podcast a couple months ago and the way he described what I think you're saying, cuz I'm the opposite of you, I'm like not scientifically inclined at all.
What the way he described it was like, psilocybin, microdosing, [00:12:00] psilocybin tends to write systems, like systems that are not operating optimally. Microdosing, psilocybin tends to just write systems and improve the body's capacity for self-healing. And just hearing you speak about the hormonal systems.
I used to be super irregular with my cycle, and now that I'm thinking about it after I started microdosing mushrooms, I'm like pretty regular now. So I wonder if, yeah, that just helped balance things out. I wouldn't be surprised. I wanna talk about microdosing a little bit. What about let's dive a little bit into the menstrual cycle.
And what psilocybin might be able to offer women for that. What have you learned about psilocybin and the menstrual cycle and people who are dealing with things like P C O S or painful cycles?
Jennifer Chesak: Yeah. So it seems again, we have this potential to regulate the menstrual cycle, which you've just provided an anecdotal [00:13:00] report and other people have too. Like you, if you start digging around online, you're going to see. People talking about this regulation in on Reddit and things like that.
And it's not like I'm saying, Hey, turn to the internet for your health,
Lana Pribic: Oh, but Dr. Jim Fatman is all about that citizen science.
Jennifer Chesak: Yeah.
Lana Pribic: He loves Reddit. Yeah.
Jennifer Chesak: That's great. Yeah. And I think we have to as women sometimes to turn to the internet for advice because sometimes we're not getting it at our doctor's offices cuz we get gaslit there. But but yeah, so what I learned is, so I talked to a woman who does womb care and her name is Mama Demicco on Instagram.
Her, it's Michaela de Demicco is her real name, but she goes by Mama Dela Micko on Instagram and she does wound care with from an indigenous. What wisdom perspective, which I love. And she said in terms of microdosing, cause I interviewed her, she talked about if you are planning to microdose to see how psilocybin affects your cycle, which, it's some, it's going to have to just be a little bit of trial and error for people, [00:14:00] but to do whatever protocol you choose.
There's so many different microdosing protocols out there. But if whatever one you choose, do it for three cycles. It's like she, she described it and I loved this plant the seed now and three months later you'll get that, the results from that. And so give it three months. Do some journaling in terms of tracking how you feel over the course of your cycle.
And then, three months later you can decide, oh, is this. Is this working or do I need to shift something and try a different protocol? So that felt like really good advice. The other thing that she said is, if we are doing a deeper journey with psilocybin, so you're actually going to have a trip experience to do that at your ovulation or closer to your ovulation time rather than when you are getting closer to your bleed.
And the reason that she just said that was that. As we get closer to that bleed time, and this totally makes sense from a scientific perspective our bodies need more energy. And when we often are doing a psilocybin journey, we may fast in the hours [00:15:00] leading up to our journey, maybe even in the days leading up to the journey.
And that can be very difficult during that luteal phase of your menstrual cycle simply because all the energy the body has is, being. Shifted towards the womb, and so we would have cravings and things like that. Whereas during ovulation, we have a little bit more energy in our bodies and our systems are working better for potentially fasting.
That made really great sense. So ovulation time rather than closer to your men menstrual period because of the way that our bodies deal with energy.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, and I think this is where like the science and the Indigenous wisdom. Connect or one of the places where they connect. Because if you go to a traditional healer for different medicines like Ayahuasca, I know for sure they actually, some don't let you sit. In ceremony when you are menstruating.
So it's really interesting to see like scientifically why that [00:16:00] might be the reason. And in the indigenous wisdoms they also have their reasons. I think this is a great place to segue into your chapter on the indigenous wisdom and its role here. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Jennifer Chesak: Absolutely. I think it's really important that we. Include indigenous wisdom or consider indigenous wisdom as we are looking at these, plant medicines, et cetera, and psychedelics in general, because clearly indigenous people have been using psilocybin for, many generations.
But, I think it's even hard to track how far back that goes. But something that came up in my interviews with people I was interviewing a her name is Natalie Villanova, and I think she's a clinical social worker or therapist cetera. And she brought to my attention this concept called Two Eyed Zing.
And so what that is it was introduced by a Meek mock elder. His name is Albert Marshall and he's from the Es Esca [00:17:00] First Nation. And he brought this idea to, the mainstream science systems that we really need to be doing this two eyed seeing where we're bridging science with indigenous wisdom.
And this Natalie Villanova, she talked to me about how indigenous people. We, when we think about science, we think about doing something over and over again to produce these same results, right? So that's traditional science, and indigenous wisdom has been doing that for, generations and generations.
They have been doing things over and over to produce the same results. And have developed these practices. And so as you're talking about going to ceremonies in perhaps other countries or just different locations where you are working with someone who's indigenous, it's very important to consider what they're telling you and, lean into those practices because it is.
Science. And so again, this two wide scene concept as we go forward with, the psychedelic renaissance right now, we do need to use both mainstream science and this indigenous [00:18:00] wisdom and blend the two because that's going to be the thing that benefits the most people.
Lana Pribic: Absolutely. And for people who are listening and not watching, she just did air quotes around the psychedelic renaissance and I know my listeners, and I know I don't have to explain to them why we are air quoting the psychedelic renaissance cuz it's not. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. Are you familiar with Iboga as a medicine at all?
African.
Jennifer Chesak: with that, but feel free to dive into that if you would
Lana Pribic: Yeah. So some say that it's even more ancient than ayahuasca. Like it comes from Africa, like the birthplace of all civilization. And they've been using iboga for so long. It says maybe ancient as humanity and they treat it like a science iboga and bui are the study of life, and it's very much.
It's like a science. They have their own laws that they have come to understand through working with this medicine in this way for [00:19:00] many generations. So I absolutely agree that indigenous wisdom is its own. Science and I actually think it's much more advanced than Western Science personally.
So I love that you included that in your book. What are your thoughts as a scientific journalist? Cuz you are now swimming in both of these worlds. How do you think we can really weave to together western science and indigenous wisdom or indigenous ways? And of course , I wanna be very Mindful of how I'm asking you this question as you are not indigenous and can't speak on behalf of them, but what are your thoughts around how we can weave that together in a way that does honor the, where these medicines actually came from?
Jennifer Chesak: Yeah, I mean I think it's so important that we do as we move forward to bridge the two in different ways. And so something that I'm thinking [00:20:00] about with that would be Obviously there's all these clinical trials going on with psilocybin, and I think that researchers can bring in the ancient practices for cer not only just ceremony, but thinking about how the applications of psilocybin in indigenous cultures how can we apply that in more of a clinical setting.
I'm not saying we should move into clinical settings, I'm just saying I, we know that's going on and so if that's going on, how can we bring that in more to really make it a. Sacred usage and then, I love that people are going to retreats and engaging in ceremony with people who have practiced this for, I think that is really important. No matter where you are, how you're using psilocybin, you can bring in those cultural practices to a certain extent. Again, I don't want cultural appropriation going on, it's just more even just how we think of. Of yoga or something. You go to a yoga studio, there are certainly studios out there that just [00:21:00] treat it like a gym, but there are many out there that are bringing in that beautiful sense of meditation and the breath work that is rooted in, the culture of being a yogi.
And so I think we need to just be doing the same thing with psilocybin as we move forward in that scientific realm, but also as people are exploring on their own,
Lana Pribic: Yeah totally. So let's go back to women's health for a little bit. People who are pregnant or breastfeeding. Such a huge topic that I never know how to answer for people. What did you learn?
Jennifer Chesak: And it's fi I'm glad you asked this because when I started, when I first thought about the book and was structuring it, I'm thinking I, and I guess. People who are pregnant can't use, or people who are pregnant can't, or are breastfeeding can't. But that's ridiculous. There's, it's so much more nuanced than that.
And so as I started to dig into this a little bit more, I realized I really needed this whole parenting chapter. And so that's where I included the [00:22:00] content about pregnancy or breastfeeding. And I had the privilege of talking to this wonderful anthropologist. Her name is Hillary Agro and she lives in Canada.
She has been studying Drug use essentially. And obviously psychedelics is something that she's. Focus is on. What she determined is that there is no evidence of harm to the fetus in pregnancy while using psilocybin. And she's leaning on this indigenous wisdom. Of course, in terms of looking back generations and generations, no evidence of harm.
Now again, we, in, in western science we don't have evidence that it's not harmful either. Because we just don't do studies on pregnant people for obvious reasons, But I think the thing that really is important to consider is that the health of the pregnant person is extremely important. So if you have somebody who is struggling with their mental health, it is beneficial to treat a mental health issue in some way while that person is pregnant.
And, there are various ways of treating [00:23:00] mental health conditions, but if someone really feels the need to use psilocybin while pregnant there are plenty of people out there who. Who consider that to be completely acceptable. So for example mama de La Micko, I'm gonna go back to her cause I did interview her about this and she talked about her own pregnancy and how she at that time was struggling as an alcoholic and she self describes as that.
And or did. And Psilocybin was a way for her to change her relationship with alcohol while pregnant. And obviously there's tons of research out there about the harms of alcohol on a fetus. And she used psilocybin I don't know how often or what, in what context, but while pregnant and.
Things are fine. Again, I don't wanna be reductive about that. That is a decision for each individual and perhaps their doctor or midwife, the people around them that are supporting that pregnancy and that person. So very important. And then in terms of breastfeeding, I did talk to a lactation consultant and she felt the same way.
The health of the person who is breast or chest [00:24:00] feeding , that health is super important. And then there are ways, there are Logistics that you can follow. If you still feel like, oh, hey, I don't want that in my breast milk. You can pump and dump. We have. Good research on what is the half-life of psilocybin?
It's three hours. So that's when the the medication, the plant medicine would be eliminated by half in your body. So obviously it would depend on are you microdosing or are you doing a deeper journey as to when you would Return to breastfeeding or your pump and dump, str your pump and dump strategies.
And of course it depends on the age of a child because a newborn is going to feed much more often than someone who's closer to, one or, where however long someone is breastfeeding, an older child is going to feed less via breast than than a newborn. So it just really depends on all of those things.
And I included. Very in depth information about that. But again, just going back to this idea that yeah, it is a very nuanced topic because we do have to [00:25:00] really consider the health of the pregnant person or the breast person who is breastfeeding or chest feeding. And someone who is breastfeeding or chest feeding could have extreme postpartum depression or something like that where psilocybin would be beneficial.
Lana Pribic: That's really helpful for people listening, I'm sure. And on the topic of the parenting realm, what about psychedelics for parenting, which I actually really wanna bring someone on the show to talk about this topic specifically, but can you give us a little teaser?
Jennifer Chesak: Yeah, absolutely. I hope you're planning to talk to Tracy t at Moms on Mushrooms.
Lana Pribic: Okay. I was gonna ask for your recommendation of who I should have on, cuz you've talked to so many people okay. I'll reach out to her.
Jennifer Chesak: I mentioned her in the book, but I also just met her in person at Psychedelic Science and she's just she's so well versed in this topic.
Lana Pribic: Okay. Perfect.
Jennifer Chesak: moms on mushrooms as this essentially network of moms who are deciding, Hey, yeah, we're using psilocybin and we're going to talk openly about it.
But
Lana Pribic: Wow, that is gutsy. Wow. [00:26:00] Go Moms on mushrooms.
Jennifer Chesak: On mushrooms. It's m om. I love it. But yeah, I think what I learned was that so parents are using psilocybin and to boost their parenting game, and one simple explanation of that would be it helps us engage in, I'm not a mod myself, but I'll use the word, it helps us, but it helps us engage with our children a little bit better because when we're on psilocybin, our minds become more flexible and we can talk about that later.
But you get into that more imaginative or awestruck state like a child, and so you can engage and play a little bit better. And, it might be that you've done a trip. You've got, you've gone and done your trip separately from your kids, and then you come back and then you're still in that really cool state of the awe and wonder of being a child.
So people are using it and engaging with their children in different ways, which I think is great. Being more present rather than sitting there and scrolling on your phone while your kid's playing Legos, getting down on the floor with them and that [00:27:00] sort of thing. Again, I'm not a parent, but the other thing that I really wanna talk about in relation to parenting is this idea of trauma.
So many parents have had lots of trauma in their lives, so there's something called adverse childhood experiences, and that's ACEs is the acronym. And that's anything from maybe your parents got divorced, maybe you had a parent who was incarcerated, maybe there was abuse or other types of violence in the home and these are all traumatic experiences.
Maybe you live through a tornado as a child. These are all adverse childhood experiences that can happen and they can have a big effect on the health of an adult parent, of course. And, but the thing that is in the research right now is that one in six adults has actually experienced four or more ACEs in their childhood and.
People who've experienced four or more ACEs their children are more likely to also experience four or more adverse childhood experiences. So I think there's some [00:28:00] huge potential here that if we are. Dealing with some trauma as adults that occurred earlier in life, or maybe it just occurred recently.
We have a responsibility to try to heal or work on those ACEs. They're always going to be there, but what can we do to stop this cycle of trauma being passed down generation to generation? And so I really think psilocybin and other psychedelics have this great potential to. Interrupt that cycle and really help us lessen trauma for next
Lana Pribic: , so you talked to a lot of parents in writing this book. What did you learn about how they even just like manage, juggling, doing work like that and like attending to their trauma so that they don't pass it on to their children while parenting?
Jennifer Chesak: Yeah, so this was something I was super curious about our mom's. Using mushrooms in [00:29:00] front of their kids. And I have no judgment on that. I think that's totally fine. And it runs the gamut with the person that I talked to. Her name is Rebecca Ra. She's also a social worker. And she's an organization that I list in the book, but I can't think of it off the top of my head where again, it's a network of parents just openly talking about their usage.
So I asked her about that are there unwritten rules in this? Group about when you use psilocybin or using it in front of your kids, and it ran the gamut. Some people choose Hey, I'm doing this journey for myself, so I'm gonna go off somewhere while the kids are at, grandma's or whatever it might be.
And really focus on myself in instead of, doing it in the home where I. Maybe not gonna feel safe, or I'm not gonna feel like I can just focus on this, which is I totally get, and that's great. Of course not everyone has that privilege of being able to run off and do something. Not everyone has access to.
Adequate childcare, especially in the usa. So then some people are, going ahead and they're using psilocybin around their children, of course. And maybe having someone, a trusted [00:30:00] friend come over just to kinda keep an eye on both people, like a, as a trip sitter and a babysitter.
And I think that's a great method as well, if you have someone that you can really trust. Of course the main thing that everyone said was, if you're solely responsible for the care of a young child and they're not, independent enough to care for themselves, like they're 12 or something, so they're really young, then yeah, you shouldn't be so in, inebriated that you can't care for your child or it puts them in any harm's way.
But but yeah, if they're 13 and can read a book, then it's probably, it's up to you as a parent. And the other thing that a lot of parents were talking about is just this idea of. Talking to their kids about drugs, again, I say the word drug and I don't mean it like.
It's just, it's a, it's, I'm not saying it as these are illicit drugs and blah, blah, blah, but if we openly talk about illicit substances as they are considered illicit right now, again, using the air quotes then we set our children up for better success, I think, regarding all of that.
So I grew up in an, in the dare [00:31:00] era and the war on drugs and all of that in the us and I think that has, Presented an incredible amount of harm and stigma on substance use, whether that's cannabis or psychedelics. And if we. Openly are talking about these things with our children. They feel comfortable coming to us to then discuss when they are considering experimenting.
Again, I'm not a parent, but if I were, I would certainly rather have my children feel much more comfortable coming to me than just going off and experimenting on their own and perhaps doing it in a dangerous way. Because as parents, if we're openly discussing these things, we can present safety.
Safety issues and talk about that. So I think that's really important.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. And thankfully the narrative is changing and we can like laugh at all the DARE stuff and how
Jennifer Chesak: Can wear our
Lana Pribic: rooted in. And it was just like rooted in so many politics and fear and, it had such an [00:32:00] agenda. So yeah. That's important. And I know, so like I have a lot of moms in my.
Friendship Circle and just like psychedelic network who are, doing their work. And I'm always so impressed when they're able to balance being a parent and doing this deep work because it's not like you just have a mushroom experience and then go back to life. There's a whole integration stage that needs to take place.
Like you don't really know what's gonna happen after. So I always think that, It's, yeah, it's just so impressive when parents are able to make space for this type of work.
Jennifer Chesak: I'm also impressed.
Lana Pribic: yeah. Yeah. Shout out to the mamas listening and I do, I really do wanna do an episode specifically on this topic. Cuz I know there's a lot of listeners out there who are parents Stay tuned for that.
What about magic mushrooms and [00:33:00] people's sex life? did you learn about that? I like that. This is something I never talk about as a person. I'm like not very like open with sex and all of that. So we're bringing it to the table today. What did you learn about
Jennifer Chesak: it to the table. Let's get sexy.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Jennifer Chesak: Yeah, so this was a topic I was curious about. I was wondering is does psilocybin, does it boost the sex life? We, I, I was curious about that. So I did talk to Dr. Michelle Ross, and she talked a little bit about this with me.
And, psilocybin is not necessarily like your classic aphrodisiac. You might have more of a situation where you feel sexier during the cannabis experience and,
Lana Pribic: fungus.
Jennifer Chesak: into it Yes, exactly. Than a fungus. But however, I, we talked about this really great potential for a solo journey on psilocybin.
So if you're having this solo journey to really ex. Explore your body. And so [00:34:00] she talk, essentially talked about masturbation and which is great. And so there could be this potential where you're on psilocybin, you start to explore your own body a little bit more. And then when you come together with your partner, whoever you're having sex with, that may make you feel a little bit more at ease, make you feel a little bit more confident in asking for what you want.
Being more assertive about that. And so I felt like there's a lot of potential. There and she did talk a little bit about you might be able to blend a few things. So if you're using psilocybin with a partner and wanting to explore sex that way together, totally fine. Obviously make sure that you have a talk about consent and what you want to be doing before.
You start your substance. But she mentioned blending that with, or doing a ceremonial cacao experience with the psilocybin, there shouldn't be too much of an interaction there. It should be pleasant. And of course cacao might have more of an aphrodisiac effect. So that, that was interesting to talk [00:35:00] about, but I think there's a lot of potential for people to just get gain.
More confidence in the bedroom and and just exploring their own bodies to determine what they really like and feeling uninhibited about that.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And I think a lot of the benefits we experience from using psychedelics like magic mushrooms are indirect, and it's from this. Effect of connecting more deeply to ourselves and understanding ourselves better. And when we understand ourselves better, we can present a more authentic version of ourselves to the world, including our partners.
And that's the kind of thing that changes sexual dynamic relationships, communication. The potential for psychedelics is just absolutely. Unlimited. That's why I love them so much. They're so like they're like they're a life hack.
Jennifer Chesak: They are, and I'm so glad you brought up the idea of [00:36:00] connection because I forgot to mention that there obviously psilocybin can make us feel more connected to others or the world around us at large. The. The nature, the flora, the fauna, all of that. And so there is that potential for you to feel a deeper connection with your partner by, journeying together or even journeying on your own and then coming back together.
And I did talk to a woman, I interviewed her for the book and she did talk about the the, how psilocybin benefited her relationship. So that's something to add.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. I'm really calling in partnership right now. But with my ex, we used to do M D M A journeys together and mushroom experiences and go to festivals and stuff. And it was really beautiful for connecting us and bringing us closer together, which obviously is such a big role in intimacy.
But it is all about the intentionality and the container that. You're in. So yeah, there's definitely lots of potential there and I'm [00:37:00] sure it's a topic I will be exploring more now that this is opening up for me too, so that's great. On that topic, what did you come across around like consent and safety and sexual abuse and power dynamics in the space?
Cuz you did a chapter on that.
Jennifer Chesak: I did. Yeah. And I included that in sort of an overall, Sex chapter because it consent is obviously a key component of sex or you have sexual assault, and what I did learn, and this is so disturbing, but there's this great podcast out there called cover Story, power Trip. It's put out by New York Magazine and the producer or one of the producers, Lily k Ross, she really dives into this deeply.
She was assaulted in with, in, in terms of doing a, a. Experience with psychedelics, and then she's talked to other people and so there are. Underground guys, there are therapists, there are people out there who will take advantage of people on psychedelics. Because psychedelics put you [00:38:00] in such a vulnerable state and you're you're even more susceptible to, I don't wanna say brainwashing, but being convinced of doing something right.
And so she, she talks a lot about that, but then also interviews people who've had these very complicated horrible experiences having. Undergone a sexual assault. In a psychedelic setting. So that's very disturbing. And so I talked to I, Natalie Villanova she's someone I mentioned earlier in the podcast.
She talked at length about consent in sessions. So I think what the nutshell there, the gist is that you should try to have a conversation. With whatever, whoever your practitioner is, whether you're doing some type of psychedelic assisted therapy or working with an underground guide, have conversations ahead of time and they should be the one initiating this if they're doing their job correctly.
Initiating this conversation about consent. What is acceptable in a psychedelic se session in terms of touch. And so obviously sex should be completely off the [00:39:00] table there and any type of sexual touch, but. Some underground guides and therapists believe in this idea of if someone's having a difficult time during a session like handholding or a pat on the shoulder or pat on the back, something like that.
And so if you discuss that ahead of time and you're okay with that, sure, that's great, but if you're not okay, you get to say no. And that's completely off the table. Consent is completely up to you. Now the other thing that she mentioned, I thought this was brilliant too. So in a session then the therapist or the guy should still get consent for you from you again, before touching your hand.
They should say, is it all right if I hold your hand right now? And you can say yes or no, and but because you've already pre-con consented to that, you can still say no. And but, and you can say yes of course. But the thing that you, that shouldn't happen is in a session. If you've said no to handholding before the session, then handholding is completely off the table during the session.
End of story. You can't change your mind about that, [00:40:00] or it's not consent, and that sounds crazy, but that is very true. It's really just because you're in such a vulnerable state and more susceptible to being convinced of doing something that you are not. Okay with so that was really important and there's a ton of, ton more information in that chapter about consent.
And so how do we protect ourselves? How do we find guides that we can trust? When I say ask people in your psychedelic communities, try to get hooked up with a really good community, whether that's an integration circle or whatever, and you can share resources with people. I.
Fully trust the guide that I mentioned in my book, he brought a female trip sitter. There was never any touch, so this was really great for me. His name is Ga Gabriel Castillo with finally detached fully trust him. So I'm just sharing that resource out there for you.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Amazing. And I also share reunion in Costa Rica with people. They also do amazing mushroom experiences. So yeah, make sure that if you are going to a place that you [00:41:00] can talk to someone maybe who's been there before because that's so different than reading online testimonials. And there's a whole like, Yeah, there's a whole thing with that Jules Evans has talked about.
So yeah, it's best to like, talk to someone who has been to an experience. I wanna start winding this down and I wanna ask you obviously you wrote an entire book that I'm sure will be a bestseller if it isn't already I think it's gonna be an incredible addition to the psychedelic literature that already exists it's so clear that you've poured so much of your heart and soul and knowledge into creating this book for people.
I wanna know the motivation that was behind writing such a informative book for people. How has Psilocybin affected your life and changed your life?
Jennifer Chesak: Yeah, great question. My first psilocybin journey was one of the most profound experiences [00:42:00] of my life, and so I just feel very strongly that it has the potential to help so many people. The thing that I try to focus on during my journey even though we don't get the trip that we always want to focus on I have been really struggling in my life with having aging parents.
So my mom is 80, she's like my best friend in the whole world. And my dad is just a few years younger. Great people. I love them to death. And, they're, I know that I'm looking at their mortality in the near future and that's really has given me a lot of anxiety. They've had some health issues over the past several years and we've been managing those, but I'm really involved in that.
And so that can also increase my anxiety about it cause I know so much about their health issues. And in my psilocybin journey, it was like the mushroom really forced me to look at that and question, why are you so anxious about this? And obviously, yeah, death is something that we all get really anxious about.
[00:43:00] But the mushroom essentially taught me that I have the tools within myself to get through this difficult thing that I am facing ahead of me. It was like, it just showed me you are gonna be okay. Yes, it's going to not be fun. It's going to suck, but you're going to get through it. You have a support system that you can lean on, and you are a strong person.
And I just didn't feel like that before coming out of this psilocybin session. I really feel that I feel stronger. I feel less anxious about this thing that has been weighing on my mind and stressing me out and causing me my own personal health issues. And I feel really strongly about that.
And so going forward, really my motivation is just to spread the word, similar to what you're doing and that, that. Psychedelics, they can seem scary if you've never tried them before or if you're, just not someone who's experimented with substances at all. But there's, if you read the information and you think about safety and all of that, and [00:44:00] you do your set setting, which you and I talked about in the book I think that you can set yourself up for having a really incredible experience.
And yeah, that is really my motivation and to just get. Valuable information out there for women since again, we're left out of the system quite a bit in terms of the medical society,
Lana Pribic: totally. And people can read about your story facing your own health conditions being gaslit by the medical community and finding some answers with psychedelics through. Through that work.
Jennifer Chesak: Yes,
Lana Pribic: but wow, so beautiful.
Jennifer Chesak: Yeah, I I have endometriosis and I've, that's something that one in 10 people assigned female birth have, and occasionally men can get endometriosis to, but it's rare. But the thing that is shocking to me is that the National Institutes of Health dedicated less than 0.1% of its research funding to studying endometriosis.
So that just gives you this picture of, how much, I guess the [00:45:00] medical system really cares about women. And maybe I'm being rude by saying that, but it is what it is so yes.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And it's like you said I'm here to. Spread the word. You're here to spread the word. And I always say we need everyone on board. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm not a scientifically based person. I almost failed chemistry and biology. Like when people talk about science, to me, it's not that I don't like.
Care about science or respect it, it's just like in one ear and out the other. Cuz my brain just, it's not my language, I, it just doesn't compute.
Jennifer Chesak: I understand completely.
Lana Pribic: With my voice and my language, which is more like the language of the heart and intuition and as a coach. I can reach certain audiences who speak that language, you have your own language as a scientific journalist, as a fact checker.
And we can spread the same message using our own unique voice, our own stories and the language that we speak to [00:46:00] create the community of people . I hope that makes sense basically. Long story short, thank you for doing what you're doing and giving your skills and your tools to the cause to the psychedelics phase.
We're so grateful, and I'm sure you've been able to reach a lot of people out there who people like myself haven't been able to reach or people who are already out there speaking about psychedelics, haven't been able to reach.
Jennifer Chesak: Thank you and thank you for all the work that you're doing. Your podcast is amazing and you're just giving really good information, and I love that you have the language of the heart because we need that in this world.
Lana Pribic: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, and thank you for including me in your book. This is so exciting. It was, it felt like so cool to open a book up. And see my name in it. So thank you for giving me that opportunity.
Jennifer Chesak: You are welcome. Thank you for your expertise, wisdom, kindness, [00:47:00] and time. I really appreciate it.
Lana Pribic: Aw, this is awesome. Okay, so let's let's tell people where they can pick up your book and we have a giveaway that we're gonna do, which I'll talk about in a second.
Jennifer Chesak: Oh, absolutely. So the book is available anywhere books are sold. I always recommend supporting your favorite local indie bookstore cuz those are the people out there, that really will support you back. Yeah, and then you can find me on all the social media channels. The My Handle is at Jen Cheswick, so that's J E N C H E S A K.
I'm mostly on Instagram and I do some TikTok, so
Lana Pribic: Amazing. I'll link that all in the show notes and for the giveaway. If you guys wanna enter the giveaway, we're gonna give away a copy of the Psilocybin Handbook for Women. Thank you, Jen, for organizing this. So to enter, you can follow modern psychedelics on Instagram, and Jen on Instagram will have those link below.
And then to enter. [00:48:00] You can leave a five star rating and review of the podcast and just send me a screenshot of that, either on Instagram or to hello@modernpsychedelics.net to enter, and I will choose a random winner. All you have to do to enter again is follow modern psychedelics and Jen on Instagram.
Those will be linked below. Leave a five star rating and review of the podcast. Send me a screenshot and yeah, I'll choose a winner and we will close the contest a week after this episode airs. All right, very exciting.
Jennifer Chesak: love it.
Lana Pribic: And I can just say that I read your book in a very short period of time and I love it.
It's just so well researched. Like it's so straightforward. It's like something you're gonna wanna read through once fully and then like it truly is a handbook cuz you've you've organized it in a way that you can just refer to a topic as you need a refresher.
Jennifer Chesak: Thank you.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. I'm excited for people to read up.
So thank you for joining us today.
Jennifer Chesak: [00:49:00] Thank you for having me. This was so much fun. It was great to talk to you.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. All right. Enjoy the book everyone, and we'll talk to you soon. Bye.
