084 | 5-MeO-DMT Deep Dive: A Non-Dual Experience That Can Reset the Nervous System
“5-MeO-DMT is the opposite of retreating. It’s awakening to life. It’s stepping towards life. It’s stepping into sensitivity, open heartedness, tender heartedness, full presence in every moment of our lives. ”
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This conversation covers details about 5-MeO-DMT that have not yet been explored seriously in the public sphere. We go far beyond the basics of this medicine as Steve Rio and I explore the nuances and complexities of the non-dual experience and integration process that follows. We also get into the somatic and nervous system benefits of this medicine.
Steve Rio’s understanding of this medicine has matured and deepened since we last dropped in three years ago (for episode 8; a great episode to learn the basics around 5-MeO-DMT). Steve is the co-founder of Enfold Institute, a place to experience a safe and sacred 5-MeO-DMT ceremony. He is a true embodiment of this medicine: humble, direct, pure and speaks from the heart.
We recorded this conversation in late January, two months into my integration process at a time when I was really awakening to how powerful this medicine is. I share a few stories of some intense reactivations post-journey, and what I’ve been learning and integrating.
Enjoy this raw and clear conversation — just like 5-MeO-DMT.
Topics Covered:
How 5-MeO-DMT differs from other psychedelics
How to make sense of a non-dual experience in a dual world
Tension while integrating an awakening experience
Dissecting the non-dual experience
Energetic release and nervous system reset
The rebirth experience during 5-MeO-DMT
How 5-MeO-DMT makes one more sensitive & the gift of sensitivity
Opening up to and allowing all of life’s experiences
How to know if you’re ready for 5-MeO-DMT
Maintaining accountability and ethics as a 5-MeO-DMT facilitator
The benefits of having visual documentation from a 5-MeO-DMT ceremony
Reactivations after a 5-MeO-DMT experience, even months after
Increased sensitivity to other substances after 5-MeO-DMT
The responsibility that come with awakening to non-duality
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LISTEN
Things Mentioned in This Episode
Show Links:
Where to Find Steve Rio:
About Steve Rio:
Steve Rio is the Co-Founder of Enfold. He’s a transformational performance coach, psychedelic guide, spiritual teacher, musician, entrepreneur and investor. His life’s work focuses on raising consciousness and helping people realize their full potential. Steve sits on the board of TheraPsil, is an advisor to Numinus, Holos Global, and Nikean Foundation.
Looking for a professional coach to support you on your psychedelic path?
Look no further! Along with being the host of the Modern Psychedelics Podcast, Lana is a 3x certified professional coach who works with people on the psychedelic path.
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Lana Pribic: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. So I am here with Steve Rio. Welcome back, Steve.
Steve Rio: Thank you. It's so cool to be back. Excited for this conversation.
Lana Pribic: me too, especially because we have such a rapport now and we've been through quite an intense process together where you saw me through my own 5MEO ceremony. So yeah, I think the listeners are going to be in for just such a treat today. Before we get started, can you just give us a little intro to yourself and the work that you're doing in the world?
Steve Rio: Sure. My name is Steve Rio. We live on a small island. Outside of Vancouver. And when I say we, I mean, my wife, Austin and I were the co founders of Enfold. We've been in life partnership for 13 years, coming on 14 years and working together, building Enfold for the last five or so. And it's been a really. Incredible process for us, both personally and professionally and in all ways possible. This has been one of the most challenging and [00:01:00] revealing and beautiful experiences of service that we've ever had in our lives. So I'm sure we'll get into what that all means, but my background I've been in business, I've been a musician an artist.
And really, since really my teen years, very much interested in spirituality and psychology and understanding this great mystery as much as one can. So it's been a long journey.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing to think that you've been building and fold for five, six years now because yeah, you can really feel how much intention and just how much process has gone into the building of it. I think that's very felt and all your gifts and Austin's gifts really come through in that. I think it's been about three years since you've last been on the podcast and it's funny, I was listening to one of your recent, you were a guest on a recent.
episode of what was that podcast name?
Steve Rio: trip.[00:02:00]
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Great interview. I was like, damn, I have to top that. It was such a good conversation. But as I was listening to you, and after spending more time with you, I've really come to understand that I think your authority and your understanding around 5meo as a medicine has really matured and blossomed since we last spoke.
It was already in such a beautiful place. But yeah, I think over these last three years, you've really come into such a beautiful understanding of the medicine. And yeah, Enfold is obviously a little more above ground now than it was last time we talked. So yeah, just over these last three years, since you've been on modern psychedelics, what's changed for you and Enfold?
Steve Rio: Everything continues to reveal itself through this process. And yeah, you're right. Like we're hundreds of ceremonies deeper into our work. And with that just comes continually new learnings, new integrations for us, a broader [00:03:00] community. And we're starting to see. I would say a wider demographic of people coming to see us.
So we start to see how this medicine interacts with people of different types. I think the other big thing that's shifted a lot is our process just continues to evolve and deepen in terms of how we actually see this work playing out, not just in the retreat format or in the experience format, but.
All of the preparation work has developed a lot since we last spoke, all of the integration work we and process and structure and just our capacity and capability to handle diverse cases with different people because integration looks very different for different people. And so we continually learn, but we, I think we have a even stronger grounding underneath our work, which is really.
It feels really good. And I'll just say that I think, this is just continued learning. There's so much more and it never we used to joke that to make people feel comfortable before the ceremony, we would say, don't worry, we've [00:04:00] seen everything. If you scream or if you freak out or, however you respond to the medicine, don't worry.
We've seen it all. And the truth is. Like people continually surprise us with their responses because people are so unique in their expression. And so we continually. Just continue to learn while seeing sort of the meta level levels and seeing the archetypes evolving of the different types of people that come to see us.
There's so much uniqueness and that's very rich.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I loved the integration and preparation offerings that you've been developing and that's a bit newer. Yeah, the website with all the offerings.
Steve Rio: We launched our website about a year ago now, and it took a solid year to develop the content for that. And we just continue to think about how to evolve it. Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. So supportive. So supportive. Yeah, I have a bit of a selfish question because I feel like it's going to help me with my integration and then also help anyone else [00:05:00] listening who is also integrating 5MEO, but it's a really, wow, interesting one to wrap one's head around. So I'm about two months out now and it's still a bit like mysterious and unfolding, but yeah.
I guess when you discovered 5meo you had already been working with different medicines and psychedelics and plants. Obviously there was something about 5meo that really drew you in that the others weren't able to accomplish and I'm feeling that as well right now like I feel like there's something about this medicine that is just so different than any of the other psychedelics or plants that I've experienced.
So yeah, I would love to just hear from you. Reflecting back on the early stages of working with five, what was it that really drew you in so much that you've really dedicated a huge portion of your life to serving this medicine?
Steve Rio: [00:06:00] Yeah. I think the one aspect of it was just the, how direct it was and how in almost every other popular psychedelic, it's this long journey where you're in. You're in the mind working and you're exploring story. And there's this very it's very psychological and five MEO. It's almost like it just bypasses all of that and goes directly into the body, into the nervous system and works on a whole different level and coming out of it.
What, and what you're speaking to, I think on the integration point is that integration is so different with five MEO because. I think with other psychedelics, part of the integration processes in the ceremony itself, you're putting making connections, you're putting things together, the most intense parts of it are generally in the ceremony itself, where I think with five MEO, it's very [00:07:00] intense, obviously.
And there can be very intense periods for weeks and months after, as you've experienced a bit. But I think we were drawn to it because of the, how direct it was, how how it really connected with the work we had been doing in meditation and Buddhism and around awakening and around non dual states.
Like it's just, it's got a very particular. characteristic about being able to bring about non dual experiences. And then I think the other piece, when we began working with this medicine, we started looking around for who are the experts and there's a few but there's also a lot of open space in this medicine.
There's not a long lineage and it felt like a really interesting opportunity to provide this blank canvas for people that didn't necessarily have to subscribe to. 2000 years of lineage from any one religion or, culture. It was very simple in a certain way which we appreciated.
I think the last thing is [00:08:00] just that our first experience with this medicine was unlike anything we've ever had, where there was very clearly a before and after state for us both. And in some ways it opened a process that we're still in many years later, and it also confirmed certain things that I had been seeing in my intuition since I was a teenager.
It reconfirmed some things and showed me some things that no other medicine had. So
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. I have chills as you're just talking about that. Yeah. What did it confirm for you? Can you share a little bit about that?
Steve Rio: I think the simplest way to say it is that it confirmed. My, it confirmed God. And that sounds really intense for a lot of people cause it's a triggering word. And if you don't like that word, you could replace it with any word you like, but it confirmed that [00:09:00] we are part of something much greater and it confirmed my interconnectedness to all things.
It gave me a very clear, my very first experience gave me a very clear. Download like it was just absolute truth that this is all one experience. This entire universe is built in perfection and it helped to explain some of what lots of people talk around, talk about around manifesting and how we're really our psyche is, you know, in our consciousness is connected to all of the information in the universe and all this kind of stuff that sounds like really out there and really.
Kind of woo woo kind of stuff, but it like really confirmed some core beliefs around this interconnection to all things. And it was just something I can't unsee. It really confirmed something very deep and I'm still learning to articulate it many years later, but I, that's the, that's what I would, that's the best way I can do it now.
Anyway, ask me again [00:10:00] in five years.
Lana Pribic: I'm sure I will.
Steve Rio: Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. As I've been integrating this experience, one of the things that came to me was like, how differently would everyone in the world walk around and treat each other and live their lives if they were, yeah, certain that there was a greater power, a greater love, a greater source, a greater energy that connects us all and that we are all from and that we all return to.
Like how different and I'm still learning like how different my life will be now with that felt experience.
Steve Rio: Yeah. And it's such a, it's such a profound knowing that you're shown. And then the work of 5MEO is spending perhaps the rest of your life trying to live in accordance with that knowing, because there's so much about our ego and about our [00:11:00] conditioning that tells us that. That's not true. And that we're actually have to be separate or that we have to protect ourselves or that we can't love unconditionally.
And so part of the tension coming out of five MEO is this is often this very deep knowing and this huge resistance in our psyche and in our ego and in our conditioning, right? And it's this, it's a very complex process. It can be very, full of tension in integration. So it's not just, it's cause I think there's a lot of people who serve this medicine or talk about this medicine saying, Oh, everyone should just experience that and then everything will be different.
Experiencing it is just the beginning. And in fact, for some people, it creates such a whiplash in the ego that they become even more isolated. They become even more entrenched in their belief, in their fear, because they snap back into fear, even. With more strength, and so it's like it's a continued practice to step into that level of awakening that.
Is I think a very much a [00:12:00] lifelong practice,
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And a lot of it is like, what do you even, what do you do with that non dual experience when we do live in such a dual world? Earth is not a realm of non duality. It's very much a world of duality. And yeah, what I love about Your approach and Austin's approach at Enfold and why I was so drawn to do this work with you in particular is due to just how human and grounded your approach is to work with a medicine that is yeah, ethereal and just like pure energy.
Can you talk to us a little bit about, yeah, what your approach is? to life here on earth, like both as just like Steve living his life, but also Steve facilitating 5MEO ceremonies. What's your approach to that? To integrate that [00:13:00] eternal essence that 5MEO lets us. Become momentarily with our limited time in this dual existence.
Just a little question for you.
Steve Rio: Yeah, okay. Let me just ground that in. I think so you're right. You said what's this mean for Steve walking around and Steve serving five MEO? I think it's the same thing is that when you really get the message that we are all interconnected and that this whole dual experience is. Whether it's illusory or whether it's just a glimpse of life, it's like this expression of life and you're experiencing it, whatever it is, it's like a, it's a gift and to not take everything so seriously to really see that this is an opportunity to experience life and to practice and to explore and to be loving.
And two, that when you realize that. [00:14:00] We are all part of one life. Then the ultimate offering is to be in service to that life, to be in service and to continually practice orienting yourself towards service. And that's what Enfold is like. That is one of the major shifts that happened coming out of this medicine was realizing that everything else we were doing.
Was less important and that this was the ultimate, like to step into this was an ultimate act of service. And we gave up, we both had companies that we sold and we were making a lot more money and things were very different. Of course we were we took care to take care of ourselves and not put ourselves not to be crazy about like too high risk about things, but. This was definitely an act of service and I think the way to ground this experience of connectedness to all is to say, okay, back into this life, [00:15:00] Oh man, I've only got another 50, 60 years if I'm lucky. So what a gift, like how can I just live into these next 50, 60 years as, as beautifully as I can and how can I be in as much service as I can?
And then it's the constant personal work of noticing when I'm getting in my own way of doing those things.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. I feel that about the, yeah, realizing that it's an invitation to experience life, right? While we are here, we may as well fully experience it in this form. I deeply felt that as well. And then it's okay how do you want to experience it?
Steve Rio: Yeah. And there's so much it, in some ways it skips past a tremendous amount of work that would typically lead to this type of awakening experience. So in some ways, five MEO, I feel like it gives you this glimpse into what is actually possible and what is actually going on here. But then it's like seeing, I think [00:16:00] It's like seeing the last page of the book and waking up in the middle of the book and having to then write the rest of the book to that last page.
But there's a tremendous amount of work that goes along with that and it can be really complicated and it can be challenging to have seen that and then to arrive back in your mind and in your body and to have to work through the unraveling of conditioning and seeing through the illusion of some of that conditioning yet.
Still acting in certain ways and it's just it's it's a lot,
Lana Pribic: It is a lot. It's a lot. I will just say, yeah, I've had I've completely had like arguments and like snapped and all of that good human stuff since the five experience and it's not that I was expecting any type of miraculous transformation, but as you are sharing, there is a greater noticing of it.
There is a greater awareness of it. There is a greater almost like it feels more [00:17:00] frustrating to behave in that way and to be in that way. When I know that, whatever I'm doing to this person, I'm also doing to myself.
Steve Rio: Yeah. You feel that misalignment
Lana Pribic: Yes.
Steve Rio: right? And I think speaking, if we speak in the language of parts work, which is very popular. Something we're studying as well. I think it also it loosens up all these parts of our personality. So we are more volatile coming out of this experience.
Things are closer to the surface. Our sensitivities, we are more sensitive in general. And so it's a very interesting exploration to feel more bliss and more joy and more expression. And also sometimes feel more like bigger bursts of anger or aggression or other emotions that are also amplified. It it opens the entire energetic system.
It doesn't just tap into your happiness. You can't just have joy without having the contrasting feelings and expressions that are also part of your personality [00:18:00] system and part of your energetic system. So it is being comfortable and being ready to start working with all of those. And yeah, it's, it can be somewhat volatile for a while, for sure.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. And it also feels it feels like almost embarrassing to admit that yeah, I had this huge spiritual awakening experience and I still lose my shit at my dad.
Steve Rio: Right.
Lana Pribic: It's totally embarrassing, but it's also real and human and that's what's happening. And the integration is recognizing that tension and choosing what I want to do with it.
That's what I'm learning. Yes.
Steve Rio: really beautifully said. And what you said before is just the noticing. I find that for a lot of people, the deepened awareness that people come away from this experience with, and this can happen in other types of personal work as well. You gain a deeper sense of awareness of your behavior and it feels like a step backwards almost because now you're just noticing what you may have otherwise done unconsciously.
You're now conscious to it, which [00:19:00] is. Which is progress. It's just painful progress. It's the painful part of it, right? And sometimes you need to do it three, five, 50 times. Then you finally go, you know what? I am ready to go solve this now, or I'm ready to go heal this part of me now.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. I trust that's what's happening. I want to talk a little bit more about this non dual aspect of the experience. First question, just a clarifying question, is it guaranteed that if you dose high enough, 5 MeO will take you to a non dual experience?
Steve Rio: I would say 98 percent of the time, 99 percent of the time there are outliers. What we can see sometimes is just people's egoic resistance can be so intense that they are able to withstand it. At all costs, like it, like at all levels of intensity, but generally yes. And then there's also a lot of people that it's [00:20:00] either too much information, it's too confronting to their conditioning.
And there's a lot of people call it a blackout or a whiteout where. There's just no memory and there's no memory of a non-dual experience. We can talk about that in a sec, but that a big component of the experience is just completely wiped out. Even stuff that would, a lot of people would bring back with them.
So I think it's just Yes, in general, yes. And there's lots of, there's a few caveats there,
Lana Pribic: yeah, no, I'm glad you said that because that's exactly where I wanted to go with the whiteout and the non dual experience. I'm trying to wrap my head around it because don't remember having a non dual experience because I wasn't there to experience it or to witness it. But I'm quite certain that I had one because when I started coming back.
It was like, the aftershock of that unitive experience. What is going on there? Is it possible to recall a non dual [00:21:00] experience if there's no awareness there to observe it? And then to remember it,
Steve Rio: Yeah. I don't, I, that's. This is probably a question above my pay grade, but the, I'm
Lana Pribic: it's a mystery. It's the great mystery.
Steve Rio: monks in caves but I, there, that's what I mentioned. The second component of what I mentioned is that as you're coming back from a non dual experience.
You start, you hit some threshold where you begin to have awareness again. And you're so close to that experience. Like you just described as well. You're so close to that experience that there is this tremendous, there can be this tremendous download that's I was lucky enough to have that in my first experience and the only way I could describe it was seeing the entire universe as at once it was like going to a movie, seeing the entire universe
at once and all it was was a white screen and it was zero seconds long and it was silent, but it was everything and it's very complex and whatever that means but I was able to download the feeling of that and the knowing of that, this, [00:22:00] and, but I think for some people, as they're coming back into that awareness, it is so intense and so chaotic and their mind starts to grasp for other things right away that, that.
Yeah. momentary opportunity there for those downloads just as impossible. And there can also be a lot of layers of trauma that come up in the psyche connected to that experience. Cause I would say that experience though, of course, no one can ever describe it if they're not there for it, to me, it's the experience of pure love of pure connectivity of pure connection.
And all of our trauma is what creates a distance between us and that knowing of pure love, right?
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Can
Steve Rio: So I think for some people as they're reentering into time and space the first thing that arises in their psyche is these deeply traumatic energies or feelings or thoughts that again, immediately push away.
That download [00:23:00] and make it very difficult to grasp that. So some people do not have the advertised, beautiful white light unity experience, that's just not for everybody. And it doesn't, I wouldn't say it's something that even needs to be grasped for. It's really, it's always a blessing when it happens, but there's so much value in the experience without it too, it just happens to be that for some, they have that experience and for others they don't, and that's okay.
Lana Pribic: MU experience be dark and scary?
Steve Rio: Yeah. It can be really dark and really scary. I would say it's not super common, but for some, the entire session is. Super hard, very sticky, very dark terror filled. It can be exceptionally confronting and challenging. Yes. It can be just like an absolute existential struggle.
I'd say it's rare that's. The entirety of someone's [00:24:00] experience. But often I would say it's fairly common that it might be of the person's experience, a third of the person's experience or some component of it that they experienced sheer terror or very challenging aspects throughout the experience, because to the ego, to the mind this process of moving into non duality is the process of dying. It is the process of no longer existing. And that ego has been around since you were While born or maybe before born and it's been trying to create a. A picture of the world to keep you safe and to keep you moving through it in this dual experience. Like we do need our egos, but our egos have been doing their best to keep things out of frame for you so that you can stay focused.
And a lot of that isn't necessarily helpful psychologically because it's fear based and it's not, these are the things we are trying to do when we're in our healing processes to, to clear some of those. But this is the process of shredding those away of ripping [00:25:00] that away. , it's just like awakening, it can be a, it's a destructive process, right?
To some degree.
Lana Pribic: It reminds me, when you take plant medicine like ayahuasca or iboga often before the medicine enters and activates in your body, you have a physical purge, right? You either vomit or go to the bathroom. It almost seems 5 MeO has a very similar process, but with 5, the release is very somatic and energetic and Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot lately.
Those, auditory and physical releases that I experienced and that seemed to be common. Is that the way that the medicine is entering and activating within you and allowing you to ascend out of your physical form and have that non dual experience. What do you think?
Steve Rio: Yeah. You say that again? I'm just processing that
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Steve Rio: for me
Lana Pribic: Yeah. So you know [00:26:00] how in with most plant medicine, you'll have the physical purge before the medicine activates within you is five MEOs version of that those auditory nervous system physical releases so that the medicine can like fully activate within you.
Steve Rio: Yeah. Interesting. Yes, I've never really considered that because that makes sense the way you're describing it. And at the same time, it seems like the purging the energetic purging of five MEO, like in the non dual state, that's when the body just fully releases. It's almost just. You just open, you open the entire nervous system, and it just starts releasing.
And that can be purging. People definitely vomit and other things. It's not as common with 5 MEO, but it can happen, but I don't know how those relate to, I, I'm not really, because I haven't really considered for instance, ayahuasca and the purging, like what [00:27:00] aspect, how does the purging fit into the rest of the experience?
I've never really compared the two, to be honest. So I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. It was just something that kind of came up for me as I was processing my experience. It was like, it almost felt like those, especially in the lighter dose, it almost felt like the auditory purge was like the way that the medicine was trying to, yeah, attempt to get rid of whatever my body didn't need in order to connect me to the medicine or the state that it wanted to go to.
Steve Rio: Yeah. There's there's this. Aspect of five. It's so interesting because it's such a somatic experience and at the non dual state, there's no you and no body. Almost like you are connected to all things. It's pure consciousness and then you're arriving back in the body.
So there's, there is this. Both are true and both are happening. And yeah, I'm not sure if the purging is required to get there or if it's just because suddenly the ego and control mechanism is let down [00:28:00] and that's what would, what the body, like our physical expression would naturally be without any control, without all this conditioning saying you can't make that noise.
You can't shake your body like that. You can't scream. To me, it's like this compressed. Energy that's been stored in our body for so long. And it finally gets to release itself. I just think the five MEO is strong enough and direct enough that it gets all the way to that point where just, it just feels very natural to start making sound and to moving the body.
And you were, you are so comfortable in your experience. It's dropping straight into that, even from the lightest dose. But for a lot of people, the first couple of doses are much more of a struggle where the ego is still trying to keep them calm and keep everything safe and don't make too much noise and don't embarrass yourself.
And there's there is a real struggle there for people that were hoping that we can create enough comfort that they work them work through. And it's also part of the learning and the medicine to experience, Oh, this is [00:29:00] where I'm holding. And this is the edge of my. Like the tension of how hard I grip onto things,
Lana Pribic: yeah, starting with identity. Yeah, I experienced a bit of that with my reactivation, but we'll get into that. We'll get into that later. Let's talk about this nervous system and the somatics that are going on. I was so shocked at how somatic 5MODMT is and not. psychedelic in the traditional sense.
And I even made a post on my Instagram. It was a clip from the episode that I did talking about how I was so surprised that it wasn't visual. And in the comments, there was a lot of people saying what are you talking about? 5meotmt is so visual. So I wanted you to, yeah, just talk about that a little bit, like the somatic aspect of it and where that.
where the visual aspect of 5meo kind of fits in with that. Cause for me, I feel like the somatic release and the nervous system work was like the main event. And the visuals were just like there in the background a little bit, but not very present. So yeah, can you talk a little bit about [00:30:00] like the somatic and nervous system aspect of 5meo DMT?
Steve Rio: some people have more of a visual experience than others. And there's probably some brain chemistry or, there's probably just some unique aspects of the way we metabolize or who knows what creates that. But I do think that with the right orientation, and I think this is probably true for other medicines, that when we can bring awareness into the sensations of the body and the experience and allow the visuals, if they're there to just be there, but not to bring our focus to them, that we bring focus to the energy.
The energetic expression that there's a lot more potential there. But five MEO definitely has a unique characteristic in that it's unlike anything I've really experienced where it just goes, it's just seems to go straight into the body where the body just opens up immediately. And I'll also, I also think that through our work over the years, we've shaped our orientation and we're preparing people for that.
We're contextualizing that for people so that when they get to the mat with us, [00:31:00] That is already their orientation and that they're able to bring awareness to that because I don't think, I think most people who do five aren't told that, so it's very easy for the mind to look for distractions during the experience and to it's wow, look at the fireworks.
Wow, this is so crazy and this is so bright and whatever, like that's far easier than feeling the incredible depth of. Energetic expression coming from the body. So I think for some it can be, it's actually just a distraction, the visual aspect of it. That said it is different for different people, but I think most, a lot of people report zero.
They don't, they didn't see anything. Like some people don't even see the first fractaling of the experience. It just goes straight to the black or straight to white.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's There's no content within the 5MEO experience, but it's, yeah it's more of something to just experience and[00:32:00]
Steve Rio: Yeah.
Lana Pribic: I don't, yeah, how do you guys work with that, the lack of content, and then integrating that into whatever healing people are looking for, which is full of content.
Steve Rio: yeah, that's it's it's such a hard thing for a lot of people to reckon with because, naturally our mind likes to see a linear process happen and you come in going, yeah, I want to unleash unlock my creativity and feel more confident and maybe be less reactive with my partner or whatever, they have these.
Terrestrial things that they're working on in their life. And then this experience is just this huge energy explosion and. Sometimes this download of this huge interconnected universe that we're part of. And so we're often just reminding people, don't expect to get direct answers to the questions you have, because likely the answers are going to be three or four layers deeper than that.
And
Lana Pribic: Wow. Yeah.
Steve Rio: [00:33:00] Intellectual answer at all during the ceremony. It's pure energy. It's purely somatic. And that's, we are, when we started the conversation a little bit around integration, that's part of the challenge with. With 5 MEO is that it's not like you're sitting there connecting the dots going.
Oh, yeah I was like this because my mom was like that and that's why I'm Doing this and that's why this behavior shows up and here's how I can be a better person or less more confident or there's really Very little of that. It's much like I'd say that this medicine is going deeper than the layers of psychology and We're going into the trauma that is stored in the body, which in the best way I can describe it, and the best way we see it is it becomes, it's like the energy system in our body becomes clogged up, and we become less sensitive, and we become less present, and we become less emotionally aware, and [00:34:00] Things become very dulled.
And then in this experience we release, it's like we clear these energies, these energy centers in the body. And suddenly we can feel our life with so much more depth and richness. We are so much more sensitive coming out of this experience. We're so much more in touch with our true self, which to me is this like.
Immutable, timeless version of ourselves that is, has nothing to do with our psychology. There is a, there's just a deep knowing of, and a deep peace that is within all of us. And so we're not adding that or just uncovering it and we're recovering it in some ways. But then the work is after the fact where we're then working in the layers of psychology.
A lot of our psychology will come back, but if we can stay rooted and we can use daily practice and remembrance to, to stay in remembrance of our ceremony and that deep knowing [00:35:00] then hopefully that can help orient us around behaviors that are not serving our highest self
so if our highest self is in connection with all other beings and is. Is in service to life and love, then when we say things to ourselves or say things to others or beliefs come up that aren't in alignment with that, we can learn to to heal those parts, but that becomes the psychological process, but that's really mostly after the fact the ceremony itself is much more of just this.
It's like cleaning the hardware and clearing the system in a way that allows for that to happen at a much deeper level. Now, I will say that for some people, there's deeply held traumas that simply clear. And we see phobias and we see like certain belief structures or physical symptoms that people were experiencing just.
No longer be there. And so that's also really powerful when we reset the nervous system. [00:36:00] There's this powerful clearing in some cases, just things are no longer there. That used to be their belief system, a deep fear, a certain feeling of anxiousness. Like one example for me is that I've always loved.
Public speaking and, I used to play music and I was on stage a lot and, but I would always get very nervous and I'd always get very in my head about it and. These days, it just, there's a certain level of underlying, nervous system fear response that just isn't there for me anymore.
Of course, I get nervous if I'm doing something that's important to me and I've worked on it hard, but it's just, there's a different level of base level amygdala fear that just isn't there for me anymore. It just isn't part of who I am anymore. I don't feel that level of. That yeah, there's a certain level of uncontrollable nervousness or sweating or fear that I just it just doesn't happen anymore in my body.
And that's not something I don't even think you can psychologically get [00:37:00] to it just cleared out of my system. So it's very interesting. So there's lots of layers to this. But I think ultimately, The more we can focus on the somatic work during the process and then start to layer in the psychological and the spiritual understandings on top of that, that feels like the natural process.
Lana Pribic: I love how just energetic it is. It's so energetic and it like goes like right to the energy first. And then it seems like the mind and yeah, the psychology has to catch up to that. And this is what I do as a core energy coach as well, we're always addressing the energy below the situation, the energy below the thoughts.
So I love how 5 MeO seems to really go directly to the underlying, honestly, yeah, energy, like the, it's like energy medicine. Would you agree with that?
Steve Rio: Yeah. A hundred percent. I think that's a best way to describe it. And when we think about so much of our core [00:38:00] conditioning comes from the ages of zero to five, right? Some of that's pre language. Before a time where we have any cognitive, rational.
structures around it. It's these core deep beliefs that are held and some of them don't even have language around them, right? Like at one years old, we're left in the crib crying and we form this belief that we're alone. There's no like idea that what even alone is. It's a deep sense. It's a deep feeling.
It's an energy that's held in the nervous system. And so a lot of what we're doing here is this. This resetting of the nervous system and it's often for a lot of people. It's this rebirth experience. Rebirthing experience where it's like you're coming back into the world and starting from zero in some ways.
And a big part of what we're trying to do in those moments with people is to just. create as much safety and as much love and as much welcoming [00:39:00] energy and as much acceptance and unconditional just joy for their presence so that as they're coming back from that deep resetting, that deep rebirthing, that they're receiving what every child is wired for when they come out of the womb is just I'm here.
I am welcomed. I am safe. I am nurtured. I can express myself. If I scream, it's okay. If I laugh, it's okay. And just to give people that, that sense, and that's part of what we do over a number of days as well. That's why the multi day process is so important.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. You do a very beautiful job of holding a space for that rebirth. I know you mentioned that In my ceremony, there was like this moment of rebirth, how do you as a facilitator, spot that might be happening and what are like the signs that like a, yeah, a rebirth and energetic rebirth, [00:40:00] a spiritual rebirth, whatever you want to call it has taken place.
And how does that show up in someone's life after?
Steve Rio: Yeah, it shows up at least from what we've seen is that you almost physically see the person turn into a little baby and it's like you can almost see them traveling through the birth canal and their hands are clenched up and the whole body clenches up. And oftentimes people will.
Beholding their breath at that point, like everything you just imagine like a tiny baby when they come out and they're all purple and they're clenched up and then they come out and they gasp, they take that first breath and they, and we physically see that all the time, this kind of process.
And there's this sense that as people come back into the world. And you just see them looking around with this level of awe and this level of wonder and this level of like when we're born, we don't have any labels. [00:41:00] We don't have any judgment. We have no assumption about what anything is. We're simply in awe and in wonder of the world, right?
We're just. Wow, that's a bright, shiny object, and that's an interesting thing, and that's pretty, and we're just exploring the world, and that's the energy that people come back with. It's like an exceptional level of peace, and of simplicity, and It's just a really beautiful process to, to witness.
So it's actually quite a physical thing that you can see. And it looks, there's a few different ways it looks, but it very often, Austin and I will just look at each other with this knowing, look like, Oh, here it is, here's the rebirth. And then you're just there as doulas to welcome them this creature back into the world, and it's such a beautiful, it's such a beautiful process when that happens. Yeah. Yeah.
Lana Pribic: You mentioned sensitivity. And you talked about that. You, You and Austin talked a lot about sensitivity during the retreat and how this medicine makes one more sensitive to life [00:42:00] really. Can you talk a little bit about why someone might want to become more sensitive to life?
Cause I think a lot of people hear that and they're like, I'm already so sensitive. I don't need to be more sensitive. I want to be, I want to be less sensitive, especially because this world is already telling me that I'm. So sensitive. What's the gift of sensitivity?
Steve Rio: That's a beautiful question. It's a beautiful question. Cause you're right. There's a lot of mixed messaging around that. And I think that when we become sensitive to our life, it means that we can take in the richness of everything around us. And speaking of my own personal experience, like being able to feel love and connection in a way that wasn't possible before, because I had too many barriers up and I had too many layers.
protecting my heart. [00:43:00] And when we reveal our heart and we reveal our tenderness and we become sensitive, it is work. It is challenging. It does require a level of ability to sit in discomfort that you're otherwise blocking yourself from. But when we cover up our heart to protect ourselves, we're also covering up our heart from loving connection, from deep relationships, from Connecting with our experiences with a sense of self, a sense of place, a sense of presence in the world.
The sense of awe that we receive, and I think a big part of psychedelic experiences are giving people those glimpses of awe and to me, it's just the richness of life. It does come with work because like you say it this world doesn't always necessarily reward.
Sensitivity in many ways. It says you should be tough and you shouldn't cry. And you shouldn't be so emotional. And I think [00:44:00] that's shifting a lot, like even in the corporate world, emotional intelligence is one of the most commonly. taught skills now, right? So I think that's changing, but it does require there's a term in Buddhism, it's bodhichitta.
And what that means is open heart. And when you talk about being in bodhichitta, it's saying that you are open to all experience. You're not just open to the good stuff, you're open to the stuff That breaks your heart because to be in touch with your heart is to have your heart broken over and over and to understand that's just beauty and that's just part of love, right?
And to stop labeling the experiences, but to just feel it all. And so part of, I think when you start to become sensitive, hopefully that you also have some instruction and some support around. How to allow energy to move through you so that you don't feel like everything that comes at you, you have to take on, I don't have to take on everything I read in the news and I don't need to take on [00:45:00] somebody who's upset.
Like I run into somebody and they're upset. I don't need to take that energy on, but if you're sensitive, you're going to feel that energy and you need to learn to let it travel through you and pass through you and release that energy. Cause it's not yours to hold anyway. So there's complexity in that, but it's.
It's the gift of life in my, like the simplest way to say it is I could have just skipped this whole answer and said, it's the gift of life.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I love your answer. It was beautiful. And I really relate to that. I think as a self diagnosed, highly sensitive person. Yeah. When I did allow myself to just own my sensitivity and see it as a gift and see like the depth of emotions that I feel as a gift.
I feel like it really allowed me to start seeing who I am and what I have to offer to the world as a gift rather than the burden that it's always felt like it has. And I think 5meo really. brought out a much deeper layer of that [00:46:00] for
Steve Rio: Yeah. Like I remember you messaging and saying something about just this unlocking of creativity and like it just unlocks all the energy that's stored within you. Is that right? And I think you don't get that without being sensitive to your system and to the energy within you.
The only other thing I would say about sensitivity is that it's also a practice of learning to notice when you're in resistance or when you're attached to certain feelings and sensitivity becomes way more challenging if you are. Constantly in resistance or clinging to certain experiences or energy, because when we just allow everything to flow naturally.
Sensitivity can be intense, but it's not, you're not prolonging challenging moments by becoming attached to them or by resisting them. And so there's just, there's lots of, yeah, I think there's lots of ways to practice being in sensitivity. And there's lots of amazing [00:47:00] work. Like Pema Chodron's work is really beautiful at talking about.
The gift of sensitivity, like when things fall apart, it's just one of my favorite books and it speaks a lot to this. It speaks a lot to just sitting in the discomfort of love. And I had an experience recently with a few members of my family where something happened that was deeply heartbreaking. And it was such an interesting moment because I could practice what I preach and I could just see my psyche going, Oh yeah, you should get really mad at them and you should do this and you should maybe not call them or, you should shut down basically. And to me, it felt like the absolute opposite of what I wanted to do.
What I really needed to do was to feel how heartbreaking this moment was because of how much I love these people. And when you love somebody that much. They can hurt you that much and that's okay. , that's just what happened and to just lean into [00:48:00] loving them even more. And I don't get to love them that much.
I don't get to feel that love at the best of times if I'm not able to feel it at the hardest of times. And it was such an interesting exploration of practicing that. Because I talk about it to people all the time and when things aren't challenging with the people that love you. It's easy to love people when they're being great.
And when something goes sideways or something is challenging, it's. I just could see it. I could like, because I talk, I think about it all the time. I could just feel my heart clenching I could just feel it closing down. And I, it was just this practice of saying, no, what's the opposite reaction of that?
How do I open even further to this moment? How do I allow this energy to pass through me and release it?
Lana Pribic: Yeah, the name of your retreat Awaken to Life. All of it. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. So at this point, people listening are probably pretty tuned in that this can be a very challenging medicine in a lot of [00:49:00] ways and that maybe, it's not for everyone. And I know that you've mentioned to me that you actually screen out a lot of people that maybe not a lot.
I think you said one in four, one in five people that want to come to unfold. How does someone know that they're ready for five MEO or what do you look for?
Steve Rio: think the biggest thing is a commitment to. The process that this medicine opens up. And so I think it's really important that people have the capacity to do the work afterwards that they're, it really is clear to them that this doesn't end when you leave our intensive, right? Like. When you leave our intensive, I feel like it just begins.
And so I think it's making sure that people are prepared for that and have capacity for that. Like they have enough resources and they can make some time. If somebody says to me, yeah, I want to come to your intensive. And then, but right after that, I've got six weeks of business travel and it's going to be really intense.
I say, don't come come after [00:50:00] that. Let me know, come when you have some time and not that people do go back to work and get back to regular life, but there's a process that happens that you need to be prepared for. I think the other component is just that are people at a point in their spiritual and personal journey that they're ready for the level of truth that this medicine provides and that it's that it's not going to be such a rude awakening that it creates.
Disregulation or, unhealthy dysregulation. Cause I think part of 5 MEO is this is a dysregulating experience by its very nature. And
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Rio: I think people just need to be at a point in their personal journey that they're ready for that. And there and it can be hard to predict exactly. But I think what we try and do in our screening, when we talk to people, the first time is just.
Lay it all out, say all the worst case stuff that can happen. You need to be really [00:51:00] prepared for this. We call it the anti sales call and it's this is all the stuff that you need to be aware of that might happen. And some of the stuff I tell you is only going to happen to one in 20 people, but you could be that one.
And. And that you have to be able to be ready to take a certain level of responsibility on because this experience is ultimately your experience. So I think that's mostly it. Like we work with quite a few people who have never done psychedelics before, but they've done a lot of other spiritual or therapeutic work or coaching work or, inquiry.
So it's not necessarily a prerequisite, though. I think that it's. Better if you've done work with mushrooms or work with ayahuasca or LSD or MDMA, like some of the more common psychedelics it works. It pairs really beautifully with iboga and ibogaine. But mostly that this isn't like the first step on someone's spiritual journey,
Lana Pribic: Yeah, absolutely. I think the listeners will know if they listen to my [00:52:00] trip report of my experience at unfold that I really connected to your space holding and the facilitation that you and Austin serve. And I think it had a lot to do with. My own trust in fully going there and like opening up to the medicine and for me it's just very clear that, yeah, you both work in a really beautiful space of integrity.
And I'm curious with a medicine like 5 MeO that doesn't really have a lineage or like an elder to report to or to get, permission to serve from, right? Like, how do you two stay accountable? And, operate ethically, because I think I do see that in you. There is this accountability with yourselves.
And I'm curious how you manage that without yeah, like a lineage or an elder to [00:53:00] report to, because there's a lack of it with this medicine. How do you how do you operate ethically, stay accountable and really keep your container so clean when doing this work?
Steve Rio: Yeah, there's probably a few ways that we try to maintain that. One is that we have a handful of folks that are advisors to us, and a few in particular who have, we've basically asked them to say we need you to watch what we say, watch what we do, watch how we present ourselves. And to really call us out or call us in if you see something that just doesn't feel right.
And I would say that we've also tried to expand our network of people serving this medicine, which has been frankly tricky to find people that we deeply resonate with, though there are a few, there are a few that we know now, but I'd say there's people from other medicine spaces that we. We connect with and speak with often.
One of the guys I speak with fairly regularly is [00:54:00] Justin at Mico meditations, and I just feel like. We hold very similar ideas about the responsibility of doing this work and folks like that I have, there's a number of folks. So that's one component. The other component is that I really feel like our orientation to this.
To working with five MEO is actually comes from more of a Buddhist lineage, not necessarily a religious Buddhist lineage, but a philosophical one. And so we've done a lot of work in those spaces in mindfulness and meditation and other types of therapeutic trainings. I don't think it, it has to come directly from the medicine specifically, because so much of what we're doing is outside of that.
So that's a component of it. And then I think partly it's just our lifestyle and our relationship. So first of all, honest, Austin and I are. Pretty darn honest with one another and hold each other to a pretty high bar in terms of doing this work. And we see things, we have very similar values, but we actually approach this [00:55:00] work.
With a pretty different lens. And so it's actually quite helpful. As long as we can remember that it's a gift that we might do things differently and not just get mad at each other. It's a real gift to have each other's reflection on how to approach. Different circumstances. And we're constantly talking about that.
But there's also an aspect of our lifestyle where we only do so many retreats that at any given time, we really generally don't do more than two a month and 20 a year which is part of having the spaciousness to reflect and to learn and not be burnt out and to have. Space for all of our guests so that we're on call for them and they can message us and we can support them.
Our lifestyle is like very much a sober one. We don't drink, we don't really do much, even if psychedelics, we don't have that much time for it, but we spend a lot of time very grounded in a lot of reflection, living very quiet lives. And I just think that's part of [00:56:00] the. It's part of the nervous system mastery that's required to do this work at a high level.
And so that when things do arise that are charged or that are challenging, we are resourced to respond to them. And we're not so tired or so burnt out or so there's just a lot of people working with medicines that are doing medicine all the time. They're doing, frankly, they're doing drugs all the time, right?
You become very ungrounded easily. We don't consume any medicine when serving. There's a lot of people serving five that consume five while serving. I don't, I think that's a very challenging dynamic and I'm not here to say what's right or wrong, but for us, that feels.
Totally unnecessary and just a wild risk to take because it's so ungrounding, right? So there's lots of little Aspects of how we think about this to try and stay as grounded and as clear minded as possible and hopefully have good people around us that let us know when they feel like something's out of boundary and just constantly [00:57:00] trying to reflect and learn and Lots of things,
Lana Pribic: yeah, it sounds like you have both made a lot of sacrifices to really commit your life to serving this medicine.
Steve Rio: I, I really think that leading these intensives is such it's such demanding energetic work and I really think of it like being a pro athlete or something like that. If you're in the NBA, you play a certain amount of games a year but outside of that, there's a lifestyle that goes along with being able to perform at that level.
And I'm not saying it's like an athletic thing that we do, but energetically, spiritually, physically as well. Like we are on the ground on a mat for 10 hours during ceremony days. So there is a physical component, but more so just an energetic and nervous system component that I think to do this work at a very high level, you have to consider your lifestyle all the way around it.
We can't be out drinking and doing drugs and living [00:58:00] some sort of wild lifestyle and then expecting our nervous system to be super present and calm and be able to co regulate with someone. It just wouldn't work.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. I think that really shows your devotion and commitment to the work that you're doing in the world. And it's so inspiring and so beautiful and such an honor to support you both in your commitment to sharing this medicine with the world.
Steve Rio: Thank you, Lana. Yeah, I appreciate that.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, want to address the photos and videos. So I made a post when I when I shared my first episode and I shared a couple of clips from ceremonies. So you and Austin have made the decision to record photos and videos of your guests with their permission. I loved it. There was a couple spicy comments though on that video of people very concerned about capturing such a sacred moment and like 95 percent of the comments and there was a lot were like very [00:59:00] beautiful, but there was a few yeah, spicy comments around that.
I want to address this. Why did you guys come to this decision to record moments of ceremony? And why is it important for you to do that and share that with your guests? And then also, how do you navigate introducing technology and documentation into such a sacred container?
Steve Rio: Yeah. You can see that some people had mixed feelings about anything being captured at all. And then the idea of it being shared on the internet, there's a very interesting, I saw that I read a lot of those comments. It was a very interesting thread. . So basically when people come to our experience they're basically informed multiple times ahead of time that.
If they would like, we will capture some photos and videos, just short little clips and things like that. And it's totally up to people's consent. And some people say, I don't want anything captured. And of course that's fine with us. And sometimes say, people will say, I want to capture it, but I don't know if I [01:00:00] want them, so don't send them to me right away and that's fine.
And we don't share them they are completely for our guests, right? They're completely for you as the participant. They're not for us in any way. We don't. Use them for anything otherwise, but so it's important to say all that, but what we found is that because the experience is so intense and because there's moments of the experience where there is no you there, this non dual experience component we felt like it was really useful for the person to be able to understand what happened to some degree, like what did my body do?
What sound did I make? What did, what. What came out of me energetically, there's something really interesting about that. And for some folks, they have a total. Memory blank of the entire ceremony, even the light doses. Like they just, it's it's too intense for the mind and the mind just says that didn't happen.
And for those folks that can also feel like, I don't, they have a real trouble connecting[01:01:00] to the experience in any way, which can be really challenging for integration. So we find that this helps them just see a little bit more of their process and their experience. So I think it's like a really helpful.
And then there's also some aspect where. People see a certain level, like a certain type of expression. Maybe people shake their hands or a certain sound they make. And I think that can be really informative for the integration process or for an ongoing practice for somebody that interesting, that was the sound and.
That's the sound that when I make that sound, if I can resonate with my body. And that's something that people can do as an ongoing somatic release practice. So it's often, it often trains or helps inform people of how their body naturally expresses itself. And then they can actually do that in a sober state as well.
So we've just found it to be really helpful. We also have some people who use their videos as a way to reconnect. With a certain sense of, a [01:02:00] certain moment and they use that before meditations or before a breathwork session to help them drop in. So yeah, it's, and we try to do it in a really subtle way.
So I'm never like in your face taking photos or, I try to make sure that it's, you're not really aware of it as best as possible. And if the person is really requiring a certain level of. Interaction or support. We just put it down. Like it's a secondary objective to, to actually being completely present with the person,
Lana Pribic: yeah. Yeah. I found them to be so valuable during integration. I think for two weeks straight, I watched them every single day and it gave so much context to what I experienced and to what happened. And yeah, I was, I had the whiteout experience for probably 70, 80 percent of the time I was with you guys, so it was like incredible to see the intensity of the releases.
Yeah, I'm really grateful that you decided to do that.
Steve Rio: Yeah. [01:03:00] And for the most part, there's a lot of people that are unsure if they want it, but almost always they're grateful to have it in some people afterwards. They come out and they go, you know what? I know I said to take those photos, but I don't want them. And we just delete them. That's fine to me.
Yeah. There's also the aspect of the music in our. Session will also create playlists for people so that they can come back to the music that was used throughout their session. And I don't know. It's interesting. I use a lot. It's funny. The way you framed it is integrating technology into the ceremony because we also take notes.
Digitally on an iPad so that we have full recollection and we can give people notes on and what they said and all these kinds of things. So I think technology is a core piece of how we work in the ceremony. Of course, we try to be minimalist about it and not have it be too interruptive or something like that.
But
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah, I could totally see that. It's part of the unfold experience for sure. Yeah. [01:04:00] Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. So I want to get into some integration and talk about the reactivations, which was so surprising to me. The reactivations, oh my goodness,
Steve Rio: Yeah,
Lana Pribic: was not prepared for that. Can you tell people what that is, how common they are, how they can occur and when?
Steve Rio: sure. Yeah. Reactivations. I'd say they happen to I don't know how many, maybe half people or maybe even a little less, but certain groups, like everybody has reactivations. So it's hard to say. And I feel as our work has gotten better and deeper. word, but I feel like our process is deeper. The people are having more reactivations.
I think it's often connected to the level of energy suppression that's been existing in the body previous. And in your case, I know that you had some like early. Experience being in a war zone as a, like a small child. And this is like very [01:05:00] early experiences of trauma and energy.
And so we often find that the younger and the more intensive trauma might be the more chance that there's going to be reactivations, but that doesn't always necessarily track. And what a reactivation is essentially an experience of being back in the peak of the five MEO experience. And Oftentimes people and it's usually happening at night.
It's usually happening as people drift off to sleep or at the peak of a sleep cycle. So throughout the night when there's a moment in our sleep cycle when we're very close to awake. And it's like in this transitionary phase of consciousness where suddenly something. In our subconscious pops and we're back in the ceremony and this can be for some people.
Physical. They can have physical reactivations where their whole body is shaking or sweating or you wake up sounding or or clenching or all sorts of physical responses. Sometimes it's very blissful for [01:06:00] people. They just, they wake up, they have this moment of being back in this unity space and then they come back.
There can be. Intellectual downloads, like memories or ideas or concepts get put together. So like information can be there. And for some people that happens once or twice the night of their ceremony, and then it doesn't happen again for others. It can happen every night for a few days for some people.
It can like for people who have very intense integration processes, it can happen for every night for weeks. And then for others, it can happen more intermittently where I think you, you had some experiences, you had a whole bunch the week of, but then you've continually had a few. What's worth mentioning is that 5 MeO completely metabolizes out of the body within three hours.
So this is not a drug reactivation. This is not, this is literally some kind of subconscious process of working through the experience on some, some kind of unconscious subconscious process happening.[01:07:00] It can be very different for different people. Yeah. Tell me about yours.
Lana Pribic: yeah. That's what's so crazy is that the drug is completely out of your body. Yeah, so I was going to have, I was going to book a call with you or, try to talk with you about this. But I was like, you know what? I'm interviewing Steve. I may as well have this conversation on the podcast so that the listeners can benefit from it as well.
But yeah, I guess I've had. Two really significant reactivations while under the influence of other psychedelics. So the first one was about a month. It was New Year's Eve, New Year's around that time. And I was seeing one of my favorite drum and bass artists and I didn't even go too heavy on the substances.
I think I was just smoking weed that night and I was just like really feeling the music and I was like, I'm going to smoke a little bit of DMT. And I took the smallest amount. So teeny tiny. It was so tiny. And I closed my eyes and I was just [01:08:00] immediately back in the five MEO space to the point where my friend actually gifted me this DMT pen.
I was like, did she give me an end DMT or five MEO DMT? Like I actually had to question it after. But essentially what happened was. I was in an event venue and it wasn't really like a safe space there. It wasn't like a harm reduction informed space. It was just like a really big venue history in Toronto.
Close my eyes and I experienced oneness in that space. But, it was like heavy bass music and a lot of energy and like a lot of people. And it was way too much. So luckily, my friend was there and I turned to her and I was like, I need help. You need to take me outside. I'm having a 5 MEO reactivations.
I get outside and go to the nearest tree and I was just holding the tree. And as I was holding the tree, I was having like, auditory releases similar to the 5 ceremony and that just played out for maybe 5 minutes.
Steve Rio: A couple [01:09:00] of things about that? One is, one is that we always remind people that you're going to be much more sensitive to substances. And I think
Lana Pribic: Much more sensitive.
Steve Rio: more sensitive, right? A DMT vape is one thing, but even cannabis. People underestimate cannabis and often people have a relationship with cannabis.
So they think, Oh, that's not a big deal. But there seems to be some sort of very synergistic relationship between 5 MeO and cannabis that cannabis can be very reactivating for people. And so I think it's really important that people know that. After 5 MEO, you're going to be, and maybe forever, but for very, for definitely for a number of months, you're going to be much more sensitive to substances to, so to be very careful as you ease back in.
And there's something about 5 MEO, once you've done 5 MEO, it can augment psychedelics forever, all psychedelics.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm, that's what I'm finding. And yeah, it's I thought [01:10:00] I was going easy. I was like, Oh, I'm like taking it really easy and chill and light. And it was just like, right back in that space. And so the second reactivation was much more intense than that one. It actually happened a couple days ago.
I was at a cottage celebrating my birthday with friends and I was like, yeah, I'm going to take it easy. I just did one tab of acid for the entire day. And the day played out and everything was fine and great. I even made dinner for us and it was the very tail end. The last two hours. And I did smoke a little bit of cannabis. So maybe that's what really did reactivate it, but it was the very tail end. And, I was at this cottage with all of my friends and, my friend was DJing and we made the space beautiful and we were eating beautiful food. And I was just like, so overwhelmed by it.
gratitude and love. And I went to the altar that we created. And I was just really connecting with the love and gratitude I was feeling. And then my body, my [01:11:00] torso started spinning involuntarily. And I went to my friend, Carolina, who I told you about who holds space for people. And I was like, something's happening.
I don't know what's happening, but something's changing. Something really big is happening. And then I started to talk to her and my other friend about five MEO and integration and literally just talking about it caused me to start having, yeah, like a physical five MEO purge and like the scream, I was screaming and like releasing.
And then I was just like, I need the music to stop. And my friend was like playing again, like heavy bass music. And I was just like, I need it to stop. And then I luckily Carolina was there and I was just like anchored to her. And I was just like telling her that I was scared. And I felt that. I felt like I was about to lose grip and never be able to come back.
I was like, I'm gonna lose myself and I'm never gonna be able [01:12:00] to come back again. I really felt like I was gonna just be forever gone.
Steve Rio: Wow.
Lana Pribic: finally, yeah, everyone was holding a really beautiful space for me and my friend started playing the handpan and they were like really helping me work through it.
My body felt like it was pure energy. I didn't feel my body. And then I did this like mudra intuitively and that helped me hold the energy. And finally things started like coming back. And then this like song just came out of my mouth. It was like very shamanic sounding like, like they're like,
like it was sounds like that, but it was just like, it was just coming out. And then after that passed, I was just like, I'm coming back. And then it just felt like all the energy was like crashing. And then I was finally back in my body. And I started crying. Yeah! It very much felt like a Five experience, and it felt like what the Whiteout [01:13:00] would have felt like if I remembered it.
Steve Rio: Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Steve Rio: And so that was how long after
Lana Pribic: Over two months.
Steve Rio: over two months, right?
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Because I was with you guys mid November, it's end of January. Yeah.
Steve Rio: I just think it's such a, I just, I'm so grateful that you've been transparent about your process and the experience, like your recap episode you did. I thought the way you shared on your social was really connected and powerful and honest as well. And and sharing these types of experiences are so important because this is, this medicine is, you just can't play.
You cannot play with it.
Lana Pribic: Yo, Five MEO is serious!
Steve Rio: yeah, you can't play. And I think. And I think for some folks it's less pronounced because they're able to suppress [01:14:00] more of the process. But I really think that, and I think it, it takes a level of evolution to be as open as you've been through your integration process.
Open energetically, and. When you tap into that level of sensitivity, that's part of the reason why I don't, we don't really do substances very much unless, once in a while, a couple of times a year we love to dance with MDMA or something like that. Like I have no problem.
I have no judgments or beliefs about anything like that. It's just most so like when you're in this medicine, it's so sensitive. And so you gotta be really careful. And I do think it's interesting that cannabis came up again. It does strike me that cannabis has, I don't know why that is. I don't know any of the chemistry or the science there, but It's very clear that it has a very strong relationship and to be, just, to be super mindful, it's so great that in that experience you were in a smaller environment with trusted people.
My guess is that part of the reason it went so deep there as [01:15:00] well is that you were in that environment, that you did have that level of psychic safety and emotional safety in that environment.
Lana Pribic: I agree.
Steve Rio: And that you tapped into this sense like that. It sounds like the conduit for that was the depth of gratitude and love that you
Lana Pribic: Yes! Yes, which was what I was feeling in the ceremony with you and Austin, right? I was just overwhelmed with love and gratitude. And I think it was actually maybe not even the cannabis or the LSD. I think it actually was that like overwhelming feeling that triggered the 5meo experience to come back, which is so wild.
Because yeah, we're talking about like sensitivity and the depth of a feeling and stuff like that. Yeah, I just feel like this really sacred and beautiful and yeah, mysterious process is unfolding for me right now as a result of sitting with this medicine. And I don't know where [01:16:00] it's going, but I honestly feel like my DNA has changed.
And that's what I was talking about with Carolina and Jameson right before I got triggered back into, I was like, I feel like my DNA has changed and I almost started like glitching. Like my body started glitching and my like. I was like glitching and the way that I was talking like it was, yeah, I feel like this medicine has really changed me at the core.
Steve Rio: That's I,
Lana Pribic: not scientific or anything, but
Steve Rio: No, I get I get that. Like I, I just have a level of sensitivity now that I just didn't use to have. And I think it's important also from a harm reduction lens, or just from a sense of being aware of this, is that when this medicine can connect us to this non dual awareness.
And it becomes much closer like we're, like you were able, you were tapping into the sense of gratitude and love and suddenly you [01:17:00] just start to dissolve. It's really important that we are very careful when we are that close to. That space that we continually ground that we don't become unhinged from the fact that we are humans who have things to do and bills to pay and people to take care of and stomachs to fill with food.
And, like we have to be really careful. You see it a lot in this space where people are just chasing big experience after big experience. And that's where you start to see people. Being quite unhinged and I think you get into some pretty unhealthy spaces and it can feel really beautiful in those spaces.
Cause you're just, everything is love and oneness all the time. But ultimately the objective is to be close enough to that in your absolute sober life that you can respond to your regular life from that place and not just escape to that place. And to, to basically, to build that [01:18:00] relationship.
It's the classic. saying in Zen Buddhism that what happens after enlightenment you chop wood and you carry water, you go back and do your thing as a human.
Lana Pribic: yeah,
Steve Rio: I just, I love that you shared that. I hope more people can be aware of that. Cause there's also a lot of people doing five MEO in these settings where you go to some retreat and you do it seven days in a row, seven high dose days in a row.
And like a lot of wild stuff happening, which feels very high risk.
Certain people are, have a very rigid psyche and they need more loosening and other people have a more loose and open psyche and need more grounding, and just to find some balance there.
Like I'm naturally like, I started this journey as an exceptionally rigid mind that can, I can take a lot of dysregulation and. And so I'm more on that end of the spectrum, but [01:19:00] I would say Austin is much more connected in presence and much more ethereal or like much more connected to a different space that she has to be more careful about substances because she's going to be a balloon that just floats off into space if she's not careful,
Lana Pribic: right,
Steve Rio: very grounded nature too, but it's just a bit of a difference there.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. No, I so appreciate that. And, after these reactivations that happened, it really made me realize that yet, just how serious of a medicine this is and also how much space it needs for integration. And two months in, it helped me recommit to the integration process.
I had an opportunity to do some more medicine in a couple of weeks and I was like, Nope. Not right now. That would not be honouring this experience. So yeah, it was really surprising to me just how powerful it is. And it's definitely [01:20:00] not one to mess around with.
Steve Rio: And it's sneaky too, because it's not like you're tripping every day or it's not like you're deep in it, but it comes in, it goes and it comes in waves and you have experiences where suddenly something just clicks and you're very emotional or it really does come in waves for a number of months for sure.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Steve Rio: Thank you for sharing all that.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Thanks for letting me last question. Actually I have two questions. We'll see how we do with time. So there's a quote from Tryptamine Palace that I highlighted and then I also noticed it was on your website. So I want to just read that and get your thoughts on it.
Yeah, he said these days when I knock on the doors of tryptamine palace, I am reminded of the responsibility that comes with ultimate knowledge and undeniable responsibility to myself, to my tribe, to my species and to my planet. Yeah. So what do you think about this and the responsibility that that he's talking about here?
Steve Rio: Yeah. To me, this circles back to what we were talking about in what do you do with a [01:21:00] non dual experience or this, once you have this experience of connection with unity to me the healthiest response is that, oh to be in service to life, to be in service, to love, to be in service to that knowing. Yeah, and to me responsibility, the other word I would use is the opportunity to be in that space of giving and service. is the ultimate healing power when we realize that when we can be in service, it helps us like so, so often we get so caught up in our own.
Psychology that we're trying to fix and heal and feel better. And in so many cases, if we simply oriented ourselves to volunteering and to helping others and to being kind in the street and to simple acts of service, what, like how much that, how healing that is and how much that gives us purpose and connection.
And so that's what that statement means to me.
Lana Pribic: [01:22:00] Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. And last question. Yeah your retreat, your intensive is called awaken to life.
Steve Rio: Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And I feel, I really do feel that I awakened to life after that. So I think it's a very fitting name. What does it mean for you to awaken to life?
Steve Rio: Yeah. Thanks for asking that. It's, so we stopped calling our experiences retreats and started calling them intensives because they are very much a very intensive process. And we also realized that this is the opposite of retreating and the idea of retreating Is like pulling back and 5meo is really doing the opposite.
It's awakening to life. It's stepping towards life. Like we talked about the sensitivity, it's stepping into sensitivity to open heartedness, to tender heartedness, to full presence with every moment of our lives. And that is [01:23:00] an orientation we hope to help people discover for themselves in their own way and express it in their own way.
So awakening to life is really about waking to the gift of life to waking to the gift that every moment offers.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Beautifully said. Beautifully said. Is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners today? You've already shared so much, but anything else before I let you go today?
Steve Rio: I do want to say again I think that the work that you've done and how you present. These medicines and your experience and share it from a personal standpoint, but also bring in all these informed voices is like a real gift to the space. And I'm just grateful and we're grateful for the relationship and to know you.
And to know your heart, and to have seen your heart and yeah, just grateful for this opportunity. So thank you.
Lana Pribic: Thank you, Steve. And the feeling is so mutual. I'm in awe, honestly, of the gratitude [01:24:00] I feel to know both you and Austin. It's just, yeah, it's been so wonderful. Thank you. And yeah, where can people get in touch with you? Find you learn more about Enfold.
Steve Rio: Yeah. Our website is enfold.org, E-N-F-O-L d.org. We're online at Enfold Institute on Instagram and YouTube. We have a whole bunch of great videos on YouTube, about five M-E-O-D-M-T that are just educational and talk about integration and talk about also. All those aspects you can find me anywhere at Steve Rio, pretty easy to find.
And and then also I always like to mention that I have a bunch of music and breathwork sessions that are all free and available on streaming services, Spotify and whatnot. So you can either go to Steve Rio on Spotify, or just search for my name on streaming and you'll find a whole bunch of free sessions that are really beautiful.[01:25:00]
Lana Pribic: Yeah. They are beautiful. Yeah.
Steve Rio: they're fun.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Thank you so much for everything that you do and everything that you're creating and have created and will continue to create. And thanks for. Yeah. Yeah. Such an honor. Thank you for listening, everyone.
Steve Rio: Yeah, blessings.
