123 | Psychedelics A to Z: The Intersection of Psychedelic Research, Creativity and Play w/ Olga Chernoloz
“[Psychedelics are] not a silver bullet. Clinically it’s a wonderful tool, and something that every psychiatrist should be equipped with. But it doesn’t mean that all the other drugs that we have today should never be touched again.”
Subscribe and leave a review!
Olga Chernoloz is not your average neuroscientist and clinical pharmacologist; she has a creative, playful, and curious side to her that enhances both her personal and professional life. In this episode, we explore the intersection of psychedelic research, creativity, and the regulatory state of psychedelics in 2025.
We tease her very fun book, Psychedelics A to Z, which provides an in-depth, illustrated guide through the world of psychedelics, from the science behind them to their therapeutic potential, and everything in between.
Olga also discusses her efforts to bring legal psychedelic medicine to Ukraine through her nonprofit, Phoenix Ukraine. This episode is packed with valuable insights into the scientific, personal, and creative facets of psychedelic work, as well as how these substances have the potential to revolutionize mental health treatment.
Thank you to our Sponsor:
Happy Mushrooms
Yes, those kind of mushrooms.
These DIY grow kits are the easiest way for you to grow all mushrooms at home. All the hard work has been done so all you have to do is wait and harvest.
✅ Premium Genetics
✅ Top Quality Genetics for Faster Results
✅ Clear and simple instructions
✅ Grow your own mushrooms in just weeks
Happy Growing!
Use LANA15 at checkout to save 15% off your first order!
Topics Covered:
Olga’s Journey: How she transitioned from traditional neuroscience and pharmacology to psychedelic research.
Psychedelics A to Z: A look into the creative process behind Olga’s accessible book.
Psychedelics in Mental Health: The current landscape of psychedelic medicine and its potential to treat mental health conditions.
Creativity and Psychedelics: How psychedelics foster creative thinking, problem-solving, and neuroplasticity.
Phoenix Ukraine: Efforts to bring legal psychedelic medicine to Ukraine and the nuances of on trauma healing.
Ethics and Research: Navigating the ethical challenges and cultural considerations in the world of psychedelic medicine.
Play as a Tool: Exploring the role of play, nature, and creativity.
Psychedelic Research Challenges: The importance of consistent research and quality studies to support the therapeutic use of psychedelics.
Future of Psychedelics: The exciting prospects of psychedelics in therapy, particularly in the EU.
LISTEN
Things Mentioned in This Episode
Show Links:
Iboga Integration & Prep Coaching (NEW-now enrolling)
Psychedelically Informed Life Coaching (6 Month Program)
Psychedelics A to Z: An Illustrated Journey Through the Captivating World of Psychedelics [Olga’s book]
Phoenix Ukraine Olga's nonprofit initiative working to bring legal psychedelic medicine to Ukraine.
Where to find Olga Chernoloz:
About Olga Chernoloz:
As a neuroscientist and a clinical pharmacologist, Olga has held a number of roles in clinical trial management, drug development, biotech, and pharmaceutics. Dr Chernoloz is a specialist in the pharmacology of psychoactive compounds. Dr Chernoloz is an associate professor at the University of Ottawa where she teaches Neuroscience of Psychedelics. Recently Olga published her book Psychedelics A to Z.
Non-for-profit organization Phoenix Ukraine was founded by Olga, and works on making psychedelic medicine legal in Ukraine to aid in recovery from country-wide trauma precipitated by the war.
Looking for a professional coach to support you on your psychedelic path?
Look no further! Along with being the host of the Modern Psychedelics Podcast, Lana is a 3x certified professional coach who works with people on the psychedelic path.
-
Lana Pribic: Hello, Olga. How are you doing today?
Olga Chernoloz: Hey, Lana, it's great to see you. It's been a minute.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, we were just saying we used to see each other all of the time on Zoom calls because we actually used to work together, maybe we can talk about that a little bit later. But thanks so much for being here. Let's just start with an introduction of who you are, what you're all about, and maybe, yeah, take us back to what got you involved in your professional work to what got you involved with psychedelics in your professional work?
Olga Chernoloz: I think it's an easy entry point. I'm a neuropsycho pharmacologist by training, which presumes that I was trained to work with psychoactive substances. And the big chunk of my professional life has been devoted to mental health research. So when all this awesome research started coming um, about, what is it, five years ago, [00:01:00] maybe a little more, I was in disbelief working in mental health, working in psychiatry, there is nothing like psychedelic medicine. Once I checked all the T's and dotted all the I'S and realized that it is hype, that the data is real, I thought that, I gotta be a part of it. And uh, I've uh, shifted somewhat the trajectory of what I was doing, which wasn't a major shift because I was doing fairly similar things.
And I've got in into the field of psychedelic medicine and I do a big chunk of my professional work in it now. Designing and running and and monitoring clinical trials and doing some preclinical research and doing some academic work and teaching. So here we are.
Lana Pribic: So what have you been up to professionally since, we parted ways. Oh my gosh, has it been four or five years [00:02:00] now? It's been a, it's been quite a while.
Olga Chernoloz: me, it, I have the timeline because, I'm Ukrainian and our parting ways with Wake coincided with the beginning of the full scale war in Ukraine. It was an extremely turbulent time for me, as Ukrainian. So I know that it's been three years. Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Three years. Still a while. Yeah, still a while. So yeah, maybe let people know, like in what capacity we work together and then also, yeah, what you've been up to since then. So curious to hear. I.
Olga Chernoloz: So we worked together at a start a startup Wake network. And at the time that we both were connected to it, wake was working towards developing psychedelic medicine for treatment of mental health disorders. We had big plans for clinical trials in Jamaica, in Canada, and [00:03:00] potentially elsewhere. So that's how we interacted then. And since, um. Well, the big part of my time was occupied by this, by
Lana Pribic: Mm-hmm.
Olga Chernoloz: To that Z. But also circling back to the events in Ukraine at that time when the full scale war just broke out, I thought, how could I be of help to my mother nation? I was born and raised in Ukraine, so I have lots of family and friends back there, and I thought that, beyond just helping my friends and donating to different causes, To bring legal psychedelic medicine to Ukraine, and I've been working on that with the non-for-profit that I've started. It's called Phoenix Ukraine. We tend to be a little naive when we are starting things and it's probably a good thing because we don't know how many hurdles wait [00:04:00] up ahead and probably if we knew, we might have not have started that.
But it's moving along and I am so excited that there is process and a political will to. This change and Ukraine is moving towards rescheduling psychedelics
Lana Pribic: Wow.
Olga Chernoloz: there is a list of substances that they are looking to allow first in clinical trials with the idea of implementing it and full scale psychiatric practice.
So
Lana Pribic: Which drugs are those, or which medicines are those?
Olga Chernoloz: It is psilocybin, LSD DMT five, MEO, um, Iboga and MGMA.
Lana Pribic: Wow, okay. That's not just like MDMA, that's a handful of really powerful substances. That's amazing.
Olga Chernoloz: So
when, when I started on, on this [00:05:00] pathway, I thought, I know how the regulatory processes work. We'll just run a couple trials in Ukraine and we'll put the papers to the Ministry of Health and, we'll be on our way.
But years ago, psychedelics were so restrictively scheduled in Ukraine that you could not do anything. You could not give it to mice, you could not give it to cell culture. So to see the evolution of regulatory thought has been amazing and
Lana Pribic: That's amazing
Olga Chernoloz: feels really good.
Lana Pribic: and in the midst of everything else going on politically right now, that's pretty amazing. Okay. So you mentioned that you got into the world of psychedelics because you saw the research, you realized it was not all. A load of crap. You realized it was for real. I'm curious, is there another part to that story around your fascination with psychedelics?
As in, do you have a personal connection? And I don't know if [00:06:00] you're allowed to speak about this, 'cause I know a lot of researchers don't like to, but yeah. Is there like a personal connection that you also have in addition to the research being very motivating for you?
Olga Chernoloz: There is a personal connection and I find psychedelics tremendously curious substances and tools. But to be honest my neuroscientists hat was fairly firmly on when I decided to, get into psychedelic medicine. So it was professional decision, supported by personal experience. I guess that's a good way to put it.
Lana Pribic: Gotcha. Gotcha. And has your personal relationship with these substances, done anything to [00:07:00] evolve or change that neuroscientist head that was firmly on? How have the substances themselves maybe supported you in your work being the curious substances that they are and being the curious woman that you are?
Olga Chernoloz: Mm-hmm. Know what, I'm a professionally, I'm a very data-driven person and I need to be persuaded and everything has to be aligned. But of my professional life, I'm a, creative person, curious person, nature connected person, and, I guess psychedelics help you speed up the personal evolution process. This is something that we were talking earlier, I guess happens with people as we walk through life, but more often than not, people have these [00:08:00] revelations later in life as they accumulate personal experiences, psychedelics just help you open up the door into seeing the, beyond, seeing the magic, and having experienced that Look at the world through different eyes you realize that yes, data is great and needed, but there are so many things that today with all the awesome and unbelievable technologies that we have, that we cannot explain that they are out there, they exist, and just to sweep them under the rug. As you know, this is bs I don't we, we don't, we cannot explain this. I add to that. We cannot explain it yet.
Lana Pribic: Mm-hmm.
Olga Chernoloz: I guess that's been a contribution of psychedelics to my [00:09:00] personal outlook on life.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. So it sounds like they've helped you make peace and find acceptance in the great mystery and in the fact that not everything can be understood and explained by data. And also, let's stay curious. Let's stay open and let's keep looking for answers and the truth because, why else are we here?
Olga Chernoloz: Absolutely.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: curiosity has always been easy to me.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Okay. Even when you were little.
Olga Chernoloz: Yes.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: especially when I was little.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. I definitely wanna talk to you about Yeah, curiosity and creativity and your approach on that. But first I want to. Just continue this thread here. So you got introduced to the world of psychedelics. You were firmly on the team of the substances.
You started working at Wake, then [00:10:00] you left, you got involved with the Ukraine, you started writing the book, right? Psychedelics A to Z, which by the way, thank you so much for sending me a copy and writing such a sweet note in it. What made you write this book? Tell us about that. What was, it's so unique.
It's so different than other books about psychedelics out there. So yeah, tell us everything about that, how you got the idea, what you wanted to do with this book. It's also just, yeah, we'll get more into it. It's so broad there, there's so many different topics that are covered in it.
So yeah. Tell us about psychedelics, A to Z.
Olga Chernoloz: I'd love to. I guess I had the idea for a while and it just happened that the, I guess the stars aligned some more time freed up. But also I've just, at that point, I've just finished teaching a graduate course on neuroscience of psychedelics I had this [00:11:00] vast amount of information plus everything else beyond the course that we were doing professionally and the. curiosities in psychedelic space that were living in my head, and they just wanted to get out. And that's that's what I did. And glad that you like the format of the book. I, personally, I think it's it's a fun way of presenting this broad topic to a broad audience because there is so much buzz around psychedelics and there is much stigma and misunderstanding and just lack of understanding. I wanted to make my contribution and to, helping psychedelics to [00:12:00] be more understood by the masses. And I chose this playful way of adding illustrations adding full full color illustrations to the book. Because one of the of psychedelic is, is this concept of ineffability because what happens to us in these states cannot be expressed in words and in addition and another defining factor of psychedelics is the visuals that we get. I decided to be one, I. Playful and to supplementing the word with the image to try to open up the nature of psychedelics more fully.
Lana Pribic: I love that. I love that. And who did the illustrations and how involved were you in that part of it?
Olga Chernoloz: I've [00:13:00] commissioned illustrations, so I've developed the artist briefs and I worked with the illustrator to bring out my vision. And I'm I'm fairly happy with how
Lana Pribic: They're fun. They're really fun. Very psychedelic. And so for people listening, the concept of the book is, we're going through all the letters in the alphabet and each letter in the alphabet has a concept, a substance, something to do with psychedelics, anywhere from LSD, to festivals, to therapy.
There's so many different concepts in here that are very interesting. And so I'm curious, what was the first one that you wrote? What was the first letter of the alphabet that you wrote?
Olga Chernoloz: I don't remember who was the first one that I wrote, but curiously, the last ones that I wrote were the A and the Z
Lana Pribic: Oh, interesting.
Olga Chernoloz: I was, intimidated by trying to [00:14:00] describe Chapter A is ayahuasca and it talks about the place of psychedelics in, native cultures in history of human humanity throughout. And Chapter Z is zen to Zion and it talks about relationship of psychedelics and religions. I was intimidated by these.
Were last,
Lana Pribic: Interesting. What was it? The topics themselves that felt intimidating or the fact that they were the first and the last ones?
Olga Chernoloz: Both
Would say, because I'm not sure how people approach books, but for me, and I know for some other people, we tend to open it up, see how it starts, and sometimes peek to the back to see how it ends. And also you wanna and and finish strong,
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: So it's both that, but topics um. [00:15:00] maybe not as comfortable as others in this book for me.
So yeah.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. And which one was your favorite to write or which one like really stands out to you? Or maybe there's a few that you can point out that just feel extra special to you personally.
Olga Chernoloz: the chapters around ego death and um, reframing of the life vision and values were quite interesting for me to
Lana Pribic: Okay.
Olga Chernoloz: I think it's both uh, chapters you U Universe and Unity.
Lana Pribic: I love that one too. That one really stood out to me. I love that you chose that for the letter Y.
Olga Chernoloz: And letter Y is you before and after psychedelics. So
Lana Pribic: Yeah. So important.
to, to [00:16:00] acknowledge. Yeah. That there's a line in the sand before and after. Yeah. Okay. And what was the other one? Sorry? You
Olga Chernoloz: I think that there is some crosstalk between you and y.
They tackle similar concepts and both were quite interesting to work on, but also more grounded chapters, for instance, chapter and neuroplasticity. more scientific topics that I, um. very comfortable in the challenge for me was in trying to them in
um, Accessible way.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. I'm sure people would look at this book and be like, wait, she's a scientist. Because it's so creative. It's so fun. It's so approachable. This isn't like a typical [00:17:00] book written by a scientist where it's super dense and intimidating. It's just approachable. And this is like a.
Coffee table book to me, almost like a book that you can kind of like have out, you know, friends come over, they're like, Ooh, what's this? And like they, they will flip through even just like the format that you chose. You pick it up and you're like, oh, this isn't like a book. It's not a novel.
It's one that you can play with and bring with you and just keep on the, on the table for people to explore as they wish. And was that in, was that the intention? 'cause that's what I'm getting from it.
Olga Chernoloz: That's what I was after, so I'm
Lana Pribic: Okay,
Olga Chernoloz: I was able to carry it through.
Lana Pribic: perfect. Perfect. And was there. Because there's only one, like you have to choose one concept per letter.
Is there any like concept that you left
out that was really hard to leave out? You know, like, Did you have to make any hard decisions about what to leave out and are there any that stand out that you [00:18:00] really wanted to include but couldn't?
Olga Chernoloz: What I um, plugged in uh, to the creativity outlet I try to find a way include the topics and concepts that I thought were important to, to present. Um, So I just, I just found a way.
Lana Pribic: Okay.
Olga Chernoloz: After all I would say that the only thing that I wanted to include, but I decided to leave out were other less known substances.
So I guess it's a topic for another book.
Lana Pribic: Which ones like two CB kind of thing or?
Olga Chernoloz: to talk more about Cat and Canna
Lana Pribic: Oh, okay.
Olga Chernoloz: Substances,
Lana Pribic: Okay. You know about kana
Olga Chernoloz: kana.
Lana Pribic: kana, Lana. That's exciting. [00:19:00] It's getting out there. Yeah. Um, so what,
Olga Chernoloz: That's been?
Lana Pribic: it's so fun. I was just packaging inventory, we got fresh inventory and yesterday I was helping my mom package everything. And, it's a journey. It's definitely a journey.
Olga Chernoloz: how it turned into family business, right?
Lana Pribic: Yeah 'cause my mom was, is so connected to it.
And it's so funny, Olga, everything that we did at Wake, 'cause I was, in charge of a lot of the marketing. I was building the webpages. Remember when we were working on the webpage and all of that and I was consulting you on like, how to convey the scientific information about the functional mushrooms.
It all came so full circle building Kana Wellness. Because so much of my experience at Wake, which , there was a CPG arm of Wake where we were selling the functional mushrooms supplements. It all came full circle to help me build Kana Wellness. I was like, I know how to build a sales page. It's been really cool actually.
It's funny how [00:20:00] in life things come full circle like that.
Olga Chernoloz: And it's uh, I, I also like how you do it with your mom, so
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: another mother daughter thing
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Which is also weird in this world of psychedelics and psychedelic adjacent products. I feel like just that alone would probably break a lot of stigmas and barriers for people to be like, oh wait, there's a 65-year-old woman that is behind a brand. So yeah, it's super cool.
Olga Chernoloz: Awesome.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: for the two of you.
Lana Pribic: Thank you.
Yeah, it's been a big creative process and you know, speaking of that, I would love to hear about your creative process in writing the book, but also just, yeah, let's get into creativity and anything you wanna share about that and why that's important for you and how you navigate creativity. I.
Olga Chernoloz: It is super [00:21:00] important to me personally, and I think has always been and will always be because I see so much value in it, and I sometimes say that I take play very seriously. So.
Lana Pribic: Irony.
Olga Chernoloz: Creativity is a way of color to the life, adding flavors to the life. fitting more lives into your one and only, or depending on who,
Lana Pribic: Yeah. You only get this one life like this once. You're never gonna be this again. So, Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: to me, has always been a very important part of my life and tool for living with gusto, if you will. And just trying to enjoy [00:22:00] everything more by looking at it with creative and alive eyes.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, beautiful. I watch your Instagram stories and you're always like, how did you feed your creativity today? Which, it's your little catchphrase. I love it. And creativity is such a high consciousness concept. It's something that we can only really tap into when we are, when we have freed ourselves from these lower consciousness states like victimhood and anger and things like that.
And. I am curious what it is that actually helps you to live a creative life and helps you to Yeah. Take it. Yeah. What helps you to integrate creativity into your day-to-day life? Because it's not something that is always so accessible, right? So how do you deal with that? How do you integrate it?
[00:23:00] And then also when you feel creatively stuck, if you ever feel creatively stuck what's your approach to navigating that?
Olga Chernoloz: I would uh, challenge you in saying that it is difficult to come around. I think it's just a lens that you can choose to see the world through and opportunities for that are endless and are all around.
It can be banal. Things like taking different route home, I do that often. Or just going through your, whatever's left in your fridge and coming up with how those things can be put together
or having a different hairstyle every half a year [00:24:00] or you know, it's, it's funny I have kids and I pack their lunches write on their bananas. So I write with the dull part of the pencil so it's coming through because of the pressure. So at first nothing is there, but when they get to school, there is something written or
Lana Pribic: That's so cute. That's so cute.
Olga Chernoloz: on their banana. Banana is a source of creativity. You can stick it to the wall or you can
Lana Pribic: What kind of stuff do you write usually? Just whatever, is it usually something funny or something sweet?
Olga Chernoloz: related to whatever's happening that day, if there is a game, or if they were anticipating something or or upset by something.
Lana Pribic: That's so cute. That's so cute. No, I love what you said about creativity being a lens. 'cause that's exactly it's exactly it. It's choosing to see the world through a creative lens and what happens to us, to our [00:25:00] potential, to the way that we experience life when we choose to see the world through a creative lens. Right?
Olga Chernoloz: Um,
You also asked me about creative blocks. I think it's, it is applicable, for instance to the book. because this is something that. You need to and the format that I chose with 26 different chapters, one per each letter, it means that you have to start and finish something 26 times.
And there is pressure to that. And I'd be lying if I said that it was easy. So with things like that, where there is an expectation of the finished product, it is harder and you need to engage [00:26:00] some tools, but you also need to be, self-motivating. But for many more things that you are doing throughout your day, day in, day out, you are just. Playing with it and if this doesn't work well that's something. but for projects that require to be completed, you need to be self-supportive. I guess you need
Lana Pribic: Mm-hmm.
Olga Chernoloz: Remember to be your own best friend and to treat yourself as such because I think everybody is their own hardest critic and sometimes we are being not.
Sometimes I think oftentimes we are hard on ourselves and forgetting to be that, to be our own friends and to
Lana Pribic: Mm-hmm.
Olga Chernoloz: Ourselves as we would people who whom we love.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: Empathy for self is a big part of staying on track [00:27:00] and overcoming the creative blocks when there is pressure to complete creative work.
Lana Pribic: I love that. I've never thought of it that way. Yeah. 'cause if you're. Empathetic and loving and just taking care of yourself and what you need in that moment, that's gonna be so much more supportive to help you move through a period of, creative funk or creative block. Whereas like the alternative is being hard on yourself and like, why am I blocked and why is this happening?
And I just can't do it, and I just can't get it. Right. Yeah. There's such a gentleness and a tenderness to, to that approach that is very conducive to the creative process. And it, yeah it's so nice to hear someone like you talking about the importance of creativity. You don't hear many scientists and researchers walking around talking about creativity.
You just, you don't, I mean, I don't, maybe you do [00:28:00] um, to people who are out there listening who tend to be more logical, people who tend to be more oriented towards data and proof and that kind of person.
What would you say to that kind of person about the value of creativity and the value of exploring their own creativity and what that can bring to them?
Olga Chernoloz: It helps you to ultimately attain whatever you are working towards because you are a happier person. And when you are in, find yourself in a more elevated state. It is easier to complete whatever it is that you are up to. So it's interesting. I I said how data-driven I am in professional life and it's totally [00:29:00] different in, in my personal life. This is something that will possibly turn away many people when I see communities, to me it is, I think it's it's not helpful at all because when people are trying to measure everything about their biological functioning, I think you are turning away from things that are core and simple. Trying to build up these extra constructs and living by weights and millimeters and seconds. I think that simplifying makes for a happier and ultimately healthier life because [00:30:00] if you don't attain whatever number you are looking for, you get upset and frustrated and you tend to find explanations for what may be not right in your life at this moment in these numbers, whereas. I think by just focusing on basic core things, moving your body giving it quality food, feeling empathetic towards yourself, sleeping well and being out in the nature. And this one is huge for me personally. by doing these simple things that are natural to us, I think we would get much further, or at least live much happier lives.
Lana Pribic: I could not agree with you [00:31:00] more. Yeah. Yeah. It, your body already knows. You already know what you need. We don't need so much of this external data and information to, to tune into what we need and what will make us happiest. I love that. And I think the more space that we create for that intuitive connection with ourselves, our health, our bodies, the more conducive that actually is to the creative process, because we're already in that more fluid intuitive state that breeds creativity.
Olga Chernoloz: I agree.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. And, being a mom of, is it two or three? Three plus a cat? Mom. How are your cats doing, by the way? I,
Olga Chernoloz: I'm not sure surprisingly the one
Lana Pribic: yeah,
Olga Chernoloz: Coworker always. He is
Lana Pribic: yeah,
Olga Chernoloz: And about. Probably he is
Lana Pribic: yeah. I'm used to seeing a cat usually on your keyboard.
Olga Chernoloz: Yep. They're always
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. So mom, [00:32:00] wife,, mom, researcher, scientist, professor, your you're a busy lady. How do you make space for play and what does play look like for you in your life?
Olga Chernoloz: Think it's another name and another side of creativity because it's play is an attitude. It is. It is a what if you. I love being in the nature. I'm so incredibly lucky. It's the biggest luxury of my life. I live in the nature and I live with nature and I. Oftentimes I would just wander around and I explore, and I know probably every patch of green on the radius of 20 kilometers, but I would be out in the woods somewhere and I would see an interesting path and I would walk along it just to realize some time later that it's probably an animal trail and it leads [00:33:00] nowhere human can pass.
And I find myself lost and I find myself afterwards. And there is exhilaration in, finding finding these new path and sometimes carving them and just being open to being lost and not knowing where you are, and at the same time, trusting that you'll find a way, you'll be okay. So just
Lana Pribic: Mm-hmm.
Olga Chernoloz: And it's, it can be taken literally, but it can be applied broader to to life.
So I think having the what if question with you at all times helps to, inject a healthy dose of fun into life. It doesn't always work out perfectly, but the alternative isn't isn't perfect either. So I would much rather take new path and gamble [00:34:00] on finding something new or rather than just staying in in the old old ru,
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. What a beautiful metaphor of how you approach your work as well, right? Going down those trails, going down those paths that many people do not, that maybe weren't made for humans to go down, not getting stressed, exploring new trails and lands, and I think,
Olga Chernoloz: not getting stressed, but you deep down, you know that you'll be okay.
Lana Pribic: yeah, you got your center. Okay. Yeah. I love that. Beautiful. Yeah. One way that I've been really enjoying playing as an adult lately has been through fashion and exploring that and just opening the closet and just playing and trying new things and trying to shop less and just, yeah, play around with what I've got and, playing around in the kitchen.
. I love that you speak about it because as we get older, we stop playing [00:35:00] and it's so important to, to keep that child like spirit alive that is creative, that is thirsty for experiences and knowledge and yeah, making the most outta that.
Olga Chernoloz: it's, It's been heartwarming to see your style exploration because for me it's a second nature. I I've been playing with cloth I don't know, my teenage years,
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: be kicked out of school for something that I've sewn.
Lana Pribic: Wow.
Olga Chernoloz: So
Lana Pribic: I think that's very European too, don't you think? Because European ladies are very into the fashion.
Olga Chernoloz: probably, yes, and for me, Eastern European especially, because the years that I grew up in were scarce, but again, scarcity breeds [00:36:00] creativity because
Lana Pribic: Yes.
Olga Chernoloz: you are forced to come up with solutions,
Lana Pribic: be resourceful. Yeah. Yeah. I know my mom has taught me how to be so resourceful. 'cause growing up she had nothing. They were so poor. And when it comes to dinner every night, it's like, we use what we got. You use what you got, and you, you make the best out of it. So yeah, that's another beautiful layer of creativity.
Yeah. Let's zoom out a little bit. What's your take on your take and your observations on just what you're seeing going on right now in the psychedelic space and the psychedelic industry? Maybe with research, just kind of broadly speaking.
Olga Chernoloz: It's developing. I am optimistic by Europe, catching on and on the and EU [00:37:00] wide level, realizing that. It is real. It can help people and as a result can help states as in countries, not as in the United States. so Europe is um, around with financing and with regulatory changes for psychedelic research and generally with both more progressive and more pragmatic approach because psychedelic medicine is effective, which means that if you were to offer it as an option to your people, you as a country would have more productive population and would be saving money.
So it's not only, it's a right choice because there is no reason for these substances to be banned, but it's also a pragmatically a good solution. So I am [00:38:00] excited by that. And talking about Europe, when MDMA was expected to be approved last summer and was denied the, I think the very same day or um, day after said okay to MDMA assisted therapy for PTSD treatment on a national level. And Australia is now a fully legal country for psychedelic access. It's been very. Narrow, but it's a step and it's it's developing and progressing. And it's great to see that countries throughout the world are coming around and seeing value in this on the regulatory level because, having interacted with decision makers ultimately you need [00:39:00] to persuade them in order make this uh, accepted and accessible. In our own little psychedelic bubble, we can be talking all we want about how wonderful psychedelics are, but if they remain illegal on the state level. There's only so much you can do, and there is only so many people who would be willing to access them. So these regulatory changes and movements have been very optimistic.
Lana Pribic: That's exciting to hear you talk about Europe. 'cause I am considering relocating to Europe eventually. What are some, because you spoken to Ukraine, obviously Netherlands what are some other psychedelic friendly countries that we should be keeping an eye on in the European?
Olga Chernoloz: Czech Republic [00:40:00] Poland, somewhat surprisingly.
Lana Pribic: Wow.
Olga Chernoloz: Um, Some of the Nordic countries with research. Spain, just more in the gray area rather than out in the open. But Spain
Lana Pribic: a little more relaxed.
Olga Chernoloz: have always been, if not defined, just more careless with
Lana Pribic: Yep.
Olga Chernoloz: regulations.
Lana Pribic: We'll keep an eye out, but that's very exciting. And so there's some excitement about the regulatory level changes that we're seeing. What about some of the risks, the challenges, some of the things that you're not so excited about, some of the things that you're like we need to be a little bit more careful with that.
Olga Chernoloz: I don't like the panacea talk [00:41:00] around psychedelics because again, within our big little psychedelic bubble, many voices would be saying that this is great for everything and anything and whether it's, I don't know, or diabetes or pain or I don't know. Anything and everything really. So I think we need to be objective and truthful in saying that just like anything else in the world, it works. When we're talking about use of psychedelics clinically, it works for some people in some conditions, but it doesn't work for everybody for treating everything.
Looking at this amazing data that persuaded me to come to the field of psychedelic [00:42:00] medicine. The responsiveness numbers in depression and PTSD are like nothing else in psychiatry, but yet it's not a hundred percent that recover.
It may be 60 rather than 30% with the more traditional drugs, but it's still leaves a very significant portion of people who tried these medicines without a relief for whatever they're maybe suffering from. And whether it's in the underlying reasons and mechanisms for the development of their condition in their own biological makeup or in, how they are at this particular point of time. This is not a silver bullet. This is not something that will help the humanity to come [00:43:00] together, embrace and seeing kumbaya. Clinically it's a wonderful tool. This is something that every psychiatrist should be equipped with, but it doesn't mean that all the other drugs that we have today should be swept off and never touched again.
And it doesn't mean that once psychedelic psychedelics become uh, illegally available, that everybody will be cured,
Lana Pribic: And given your background in, pharmacology. How do you feel about the pharmaceutical of psychedelics and approaching them through that framework?
Olga Chernoloz: I think that we need to avoid single axis. Single access' path for psychedelics. psychedelics need to be developed as Pharmac [00:44:00] pharmaceuticals? Because you know what you're taking every time and the quality control is there and it's, the. Consistency is always there and the access through the medical system is there.
And for many people it is their comfort zone and we need to meet them where they are. um, Many of the commercial entities developing psychedelic substances they are pursuing path of saying stay as they are. Psychedelics are illegal, but I will carve out the regulatory map so that my substance is legal, whereas everything else stays as is. It's wrong. It's strange to be, prohibiting and prosecuting psychedelics, [00:45:00] especially natural substances. It just it's ridiculous to, to try to outlaw nature. but broadly speaking, when it comes to medicinal use, I think that medical clinical path absolutely needs to exist and be developed. But we've talked about play and creativity and fun. it's psychedelics have so much to offer healthy people to just expand their lives and see, see beyond and experience this awe of psychedelic experiences and use it for solving creative problems or to just have fun. is nothing wrong with alt fun,
Lana Pribic: That's for sure. Yep. Amazing. Can you explain what single [00:46:00] path access is and what the alternative would be for psychedelics or.
Olga Chernoloz: for instance with MDMA as it is being pursued in the US for treatment of PTSD. MDMA has been, MDMA assisted therapy has been shown to be tremendously effective for treatment of PTSD and maps. And now they're commercial offshoot like us are pursuing bringing MDMA assisted therapy to the market as treatment for PTSD.
So the way they approached it is to leave. MDMA scheduled as it is, as an illegal substance. But to that when it is formulated in this specific fashion and for this specific purpose by people trained in this specific manner, then it is [00:47:00] okay. Why
Lana Pribic: Oh, okay.
Olga Chernoloz: make the same quality substance available to people who just want to have fun and ensure that way that they will be okay rather than buying something off the street, which may or may not contain the substance that they are looking to get.
Lana Pribic: Gotcha. Okay. So the alternative would be two, if we're gonna make it available, make it available for a variety of different scenarios and reasons rather than just the one. Yeah. How likely is it that would happen?
Olga Chernoloz: Not in the near term,
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: don't think, I like this idea. I think I first heard it from Rick Doblin driver license analogy, where you are made to go through some sort of course, pass some sort of exam or maybe have a supervised experience and once [00:48:00] you, you know, check it off, then you are free to explore on your own and access these substances.
Lana Pribic: That's interesting. Do like a harm reduction training or something. Okay. That's cool. Yeah. That sounds like a utopia, but you know, we can, we can keep working towards it. Yeah. Amazing. And speaking of the psychedelic industry and space at large, what do you think we need to make it just a more responsible space and how can we as individuals help make the space a more responsible one?
Olga Chernoloz: I think part of the answer here is again, being more balanced in presenting the data about risks and benefits. As with anything, you can drink too much water and die from [00:49:00] it, right? So we need to be more. Balanced. But there is another side to this of these substances that are so in vogue now being used by traditional cultures for, in some instances, for millennia, in some instances for hundreds of years. So how do we balance respect for these traditional uses with everyone's curiosity in trying and accessing them? But this broad interest towards these plants, if we're talking about natural derived psychedelics, it's driving over harvesting and writing the prices up so that the traditional cultures cannot access something that. Is their traditional [00:50:00] medicine. So finding a way be respective but also allow broader is is a big question and an important point as well.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. And one that sounds like we don't really have the answers to yet
Olga Chernoloz: it's um, not sure what is the right way to do that. I sometimes think back to the time where, when University of Ottawa, where I both studied and now teach at some point banned yoga classes uh, Marcus stating that this is a cultural appropriation.
So how do we
Hmm. Common sense with the respect for traditional cultures.
Yeah,
Lana Pribic: that's
an important question. I think that's probably like the most, one of the most pressing questions in terms of like actually [00:51:00] integrating these medicines that are not technically ours into a world where even though they're not ours, like there are people in our world that need them and could benefit from them, and in some instances want to be shared.
And in some instances don't want to be shared. Yeah, it's a great question, I think to constantly be asking oneself and. I think the answer to it is gonna be so dependent on the situation and the substance itself.
Olga Chernoloz: That's very contextual.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. So are psychedelics, aren't they? Yeah. So Olga, you have your book out which is very exciting.
I imagine getting that out has cleared a lot of space in your calendar. What else are you working on? What are you excited about? Both per personally and professionally?
Olga Chernoloz: Um, I am considering moving more of my [00:52:00] time towards academia because there are, I. Questions that I am very curious about that are not very commercial. So to find answers to them, I gotta find a different pathway. For instance, one of these things is tying back the creativity and art and nature to psychedelics and to social wellbeing.
Because generally slowly medicine is starting to turn away from precise diagnoses to a more holistic outlook on health. And are. So many things around us that we can tap into [00:53:00] to feel better, both mentally and physically, that we and just run by with our busy lives, and then end up in the medical system having to pay to get healthy and get our time back that we could have invested in the first place to not get ill. And on the other hand, with psychedelics, we know that they turn people towards nature and they people towards more creative practices. Like research has shown that people who've tried psychedelics start wearing more colors, seeing
Lana Pribic: believe that
Olga Chernoloz: and manifesting them into the world.
Lana Pribic: you start seeing in color.
Olga Chernoloz: absolutely.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: trying to tie my personal interests in these accessible tools. [00:54:00] That could be used to as a preventative health measures and both as as a curative measures and how psychedelics help us recognize these opportunities and implement these practices into our lives. So there are questions that I am curious about and psychedelics and beyond, but when it comes to psychedelics and maybe shifting the gears somewhat and throwing a wrench into our conversation with my work on bringing psychedelic medicine to Ukraine as it came, as it progressed. I started thinking of, maybe if it was legal today, would it have been a good option [00:55:00] for Ukrainians to be able to access it legally? Because when the trauma is ongoing and play on, is it good to bring yourself into more neuroplastic and malleable state?
Lana Pribic: All right.
Olga Chernoloz: with psychedelics we always talk about set and setting. And all of the research has been done when these conditions are dialed in and optimized. But what happens when you introduce these powerful medicines when set and setting cannot be dialed up?
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: that a. Is it a reasonable choice in those situations? Or maybe, people are numbing out to the tragedies, playing around [00:56:00] creating somewhat of a shield from this everyday trauma. So maybe stripping them off this shield is not a very good idea the set and setting is poor as it is.
So are many things that I'm curious about and I'm hoping that I will be able to, progress and bring more light to. Some of these areas. am curious and driven by finding these answers, but I am also staying playful in allowing to for it to transpire however it plays out
Lana Pribic: That sounds like a perfect place to be in as a curious person and doing the work that you do. And I think you are really asking the right [00:57:00] questions here and you're asking the hard questions, and I'm excited to see where all of this takes you.
Olga Chernoloz: wonder.
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Olga Chernoloz: much.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And where can, who should pick up your book psychedelics?
A to Z, an illustrated journey through the captivating world of psychedelics. You guys, it's so fun. Who should pick up your book and where can people pick up your book? Is it available worldwide? Or tell us a little bit about that.
Olga Chernoloz: Book can be purchased on Amazon. It should be available all worldwide, but I'm hearing that in Europe it may be taking a little longer to, for it to land. and who should get a book? Everybody really, who has a at least a sparkle of curiosity in the direction of psychedelics. So can be people who are very well [00:58:00] versed in psychedelic because it offers, comprehensive and sometimes new outlook on the things that they might already know, but also add some of the subjects that, that they don't normally think about. and it's also for people who have nothing to do and know nothing about psychedelics, but heard the buzzword and curious to, to learn more.
Because as you kindly mentioned, it is very broad and versatile and it covers a lot of ground. So I think by, going through it, a person would would obtain a fairly outlook on the field of psychedelics.
Lana Pribic: Yeah definitely. So you guys, yeah, pick it up. I think it would actually make an amazing gift as well. Like such a fun gift. And also thank you for including Iboga and dedicating the I chapter to that. We love that. And you wrote about the B tea as [00:59:00] well, so that made me really happy. Olga, thank you so much.
This was, it was so nice to catch up with you. So lovely. And just to reconnect now we can keep the conversation flowing offline.
Olga Chernoloz: Thank you Lana. It was so great to be with you here today.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Thanks so much for listening everyone. And yeah, we'll catch you in the next episode. I.
