121 | Psychedelics After Healing: Creative Fuel for the Leaders of Tomorrow w/ Paul F. Austin
“We also need to make [psychedelics] available for those who are building the systems of tomorrow, because we want those systems of tomorrow to be influenced by the intelligence that is inherent in some of these ancient medicines.”
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In this exciting episode, I sit down with Paul Austin, founder of Third Wave, to discuss the transformative effects of microdosing on leadership, creativity, and personal growth. Paul shares his journey with microdosing and how it has helped him and others cultivate neuroplasticity, enhance courage, and unlock creative potential.
We explore the connection between microdosing and leadership, focusing on how psychedelics can help us adapt, problem-solve, and step into our most resilient and effective selves. Paul also shares updates on Third Wave, including their new Psychedelic Coaching Institute and certification program, aimed at helping practitioners integrate psychedelics into their work.
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Topics Covered:
Microdosing and Leadership: How microdosing helps develop resilience, adaptability, and courage in leaders.
Neuroplasticity and Creativity: How psychedelics enhance creativity, problem-solving, and cognitive flexibility for leaders and entrepreneurs.
Courage and Risk-Taking: How microdosing helps individuals overcome fear and take bold actions.
Psychedelics in Coaching: The integration of psychedelics into personal growth through coaching and how it helps individuals overcome limiting beliefs.
Building a Psychedelic Movement: The challenges of creating a cultural framework for the safe, legal, and effective use of psychedelics.
Personal Growth and Transformation: How psychedelics, specifically microdosing, contribute to personal development, self-awareness and creativity.
Using Microdosing to Fuel Creation: Practical ways microdosing enhances focus, reduces procrastination, and promotes productivity.
Third Wave’s Psychedelic Coaching Institute: Introduction to the new coaching certification program and its role in integrating psychedelics into coaching.
Integrating Psychedelics into Daily Life: How to work with psychedelics, including microdosing, in daily routines to create lasting transformation.
Vision for the Future: Paul’s long-term vision for Third Wave, the psychedelic community, and the role of psychedelics in leadership development.
LISTEN
Things Mentioned in This Episode
Show Links:
Third Wave – Website
Psychedelic Coaching Institute – Practitioner Training Program
The Microdosing Collective – Nonprofit for Legal Microdosing
Where to find Paul F. Austin:
About Paul F. Austin:
Paul F Austin is reshaping the future of business by merging microdoses of psychedelics with personal & professional growth. As an entrepreneur and thought leader, he advocates for the power of psychedelics to foster creativity, clarity, and leadership. Featured in Forbes, Rolling Stone, and the BBC's Worklife, Paul is a pioneer in the convergence of psychedelics, personal transformation, and professional success.
Paul has created the Practitioner Certification Program—a groundbreaking framework that reimagines how psychedelics can drive innovation in the boardroom and beyond. His approach challenges conventional leadership paradigms, equipping professionals to harness altered states of consciousness for sharper decision-making, emotional resilience, and breakthrough strategies. By merging the rigor of science with the boldness of uncharted territory, Paul invites a new wave of leaders to not just succeed—but to revolutionize how success is defined.
Looking for a professional coach to support you on your psychedelic path?
Look no further! Along with being the host of the Modern Psychedelics Podcast, Lana is a 3x certified professional coach who works with people on the psychedelic path.
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121 - Paul Austin
Lana Pribic: Paul Austin, welcome back. It's been three years since you last appeared on the show,
Paul Austin: Well, I'm happy to be back, Lana. There's been a lot of changes in those last three years in the, in the psychedelic space. Maybe we'll have a chance to talk about some of those today, but I've been tracking and following the evolution of modern psychedelics and your work. And it's it's really good to be back and reconnecting with you.
So thanks for having me on the show.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, thanks so much. I feel like, you know, I'm such a little baby over here compared to like third Wave and psychedelics today and double blind the heavy hitter media outlets, but it's always lovely to connect with you guys. Um, I wanted to just start with a little warmup of. Hearing your thoughts on actually San Diego, 'cause I thought you just moved there, but you've been there for a while, but how's the psychedelic scene over there and the community there?
Paul Austin: Yeah, so I live in a part of San Diego called uh, LaCosta. And LaCosta is actually [00:01:00] part of Carlsbad, but it's like a tucked away part of Carlsbad in, in some of the hills close to Encinitas. And LaCosta, I found is, has this really high density of entrepreneurial uh, wellness, sort of focused, psychedelic inclined individuals.
And what I love about San Diego is, each, there's cities have an energy in and of themselves, and I find the energy of San Diego to be very pure and crystalline. There's something about being in SoCal where the weather's always nice here. For the most part, and by the ocean and the water, but it's also drier.
And so that lends itself to, I. Yeah, just a, it's a really easy place to live. Like my nervous system in, in living here and being here feels very relaxed and calm and wellness and health are really a center point for San Diego and San Diego over the last 20 or 30 years. [00:02:00] It's been the center point of where science meets spirituality.
So you have a lot of cutting edge clinical institutions here, like the University of California, San Diego, UCSD. They're doing a lot of interesting clinical research on psychedelics, including for phantom limb pain as well as a DMT. Infusion study. So there's some really interesting biotech clinical research, cutting edge stuff that happens here.
But you also have a very deep spiritual presence. So the self-realization fellow fellowship, which was started by Yogananda about a hundred, 120 years ago, one of their main centers is here in Encinitas. You have people like Deepak Chopra, who, he had his center here for a very long time, and they were exploring these other aspects around where science meets spirituality.
And so I find this convergence to be I think the most integrated of all the places that I've traveled to and lived. And the vibe here is, like I, I grew up in the Midwest in Michigan. and [00:03:00] I find the people here to be very kind and friendly, very warm, opening, welcom, welcoming.
And so, I've traveled and lived in many places over the last 13 years since I left Michigan. And I find I finally feel like I found my new home being here in San Diego.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, it definitely sounds like San Diego is an embodiment of who you are as a person in a way, so that's nice that you've found that place for yourself. I find that a lot of people that I speak to, whether it's my clients or people in my audience, they really want to get involved with community and meet people and they come back from retreats and, they're on that, that what the pink cloud effect, and they want to just connect with people.
What advice do you have for people who want to get out there in the community, meet people, make connections with others who are interested in this work?
Paul Austin: Yeah, it's tricky, because when we come back from these retreat experiences, we're very tender and raw and [00:04:00] vulnerable. We've had these really deep and profound experiences for ourselves. But also oftentimes at these retreats, we really connect with other people who are at the experiences and then we go back into our homes, into our bubbles.
And it, for a lot of folks, it feels like the life they go back into is a very sort of rude awakening from the experience that they just had with psychedelics in plant medicine. And so being able to reach out and find, I think trust is so important in this process because when we are raw and vulnerable and tender and when we have our guards down we may start to actively reach out.
And try to, attend a conference or an event, or, a lot of cities now have local psychedelic societies, so they'll host, events on a weekly basis where you can go and meet people and find the others. But I find the challenge is sometimes we come into those spaces with maybe a little too much vulnerability or not enough discernment.
And so I've seen a lot of people get burned where maybe they're just too open, they go into this [00:05:00] new community and they don't necessarily go into that community with the same level of discernment that they maybe have elsewhere in their lives. So I think the first thing is, be intentional. Look for those people, but also have some patience because it does take time to really find the people that really resonate with you most.
I've also found, and this is just an example in San Diego, but . You have a few that would be also relevant in a place like Toronto where there are these adjacent communities. So one that I feel like is very popular or had been very popular in Toronto was other ship where there are people coming together
Lana Pribic: a cult
Paul Austin: yeah, for sauna and cold plunging and like that whole breath work and that whole thing.
I go to a place locally here in Carlsbad called Breed Degrees, which is similar. They do breath work, sauna, cold plunge. And so I, I meet some folks who also have my other adjacent interests in common. So, and a lot of these folks that are curious about psychedelics, they're wondering about psychedelics even though they're not, quote unquote in the psychedelic [00:06:00] community.
So I think, looking for some of these places that may be adjacent, that may have some of your shared interests in mind and then getting a couple big events on your calendar like . Coming up this year, we have the Psychedelic Science Conference in Denver, which is, I believe, June 16 to 20.
And at the last one in 2023, there were, I don't know, 12,000 people at that event. I think this one will be smaller. My guess is probably closer to five to 6,000 because MDMA got rejected. So some of the hype has died off in the space but getting a big event or two on your calendar and going and being willing to find the others is also really helpful.
So discernment, continuing to practice discernment is always necessary. And looking for some of those psychedelic adjacent communities,
Where folks are hanging out at.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, that's great advice. Yeah. 'cause you're right, people are like really vulnerable and open and that is okay in that retreat space and in that ceremony space. But coming back to, a big city or your town where the setting is [00:07:00] not the same. Yeah. That's a good thing to watch out for. So the last time we spoke, like I said, was 2022 uh, three years ago, and you started third wave 10 years ago, which is, so like, talk about pioneering , what's been happening at third Wave in the last three years, and also what's new in microdosing.
What do we, what updates do we need in microdosing
Paul Austin: It's a good question. So, third Wave started as a hobby. In 2015, I just on a lark, started a website and then started to publish content about psychedelics and microdosing. In 2017, we rolled out a course on microdosing, like a self-study course that people could purchase. And then 2019, we raised a little bit of Angel investment just to bring the website to the next level.
We rolled out a directory of retreats and clinics and coaches and therapists, sort of practitioners and providers in this space. And third Wave is found this lane where it's like. We send out a newsletter once a week. I've [00:08:00] continued to host the podcast and I really love to host the podcast. So the podcast has been very prevalent and central, but we don't, we're not like a doubleblind.
We're doubleblind is consistently publishing really long form journalism. Our main long form. Content is the podcast, and then we're getting more and more into video because I find, and I have been found finding in the age of AI video is going to become more and more popular. And so we've been focusing on how do we teach and educate more through, through video.
So we've also, like I mentioned, we rolled out the directory, maybe have, I don't know, 500 providers in that directory. So if folks are looking for a retreat center or a clinic or a therapist or coach to work with, we have quite a few of those in that directory. And then our big focus and emphasis has been on our training program.
So three and a half years ago, almost four years ago now, we rolled out our what is now a 10 month certification program, and what I call the skill of psychedelics. And the emphasis of that [00:09:00] program is on the, we have an intensive, like a week long intensive in Costa Rica for that. And then we really want people to become steeped in what we call the five key elements.
So assessment. Preparation, facilitation, integration and microdosing. And that has been, I would say, the main, both business, but also energetic focus. We've had about 300 people who have gone through that training program, who we've brought on retreats. We've done now eight retreats in Costa Rica as part of that training, and we weave microdosing into that.
Microdosing is a pillar. Absolutely. But there's also, people are interested in MDMA and ketamine and psilocybin and some of these other medicines that they can work with as well. So my background has always been more as a teacher and educator, a facilitator. So I really feel a deep love for these trainings and intensives and retreats, so,
That's like happening. We've been impacted just like everyone else has in the [00:10:00] psychedelic space over the last six months by the rejection of MDMA. So it has been, if I'm putting my CEO entrepreneur hat on, it's definitely been a tough last year um, in this space we had this massive hype cycle from 2020 basically to 20 23, 20 24.
That now has really come down. And so for a lot of companies in the space right now, there's consolidation, there's survival, there's, how do we just keep the lights on and make sure things keep moving? And we're I forget the phrase that I'm trying to come up with, but we, We are also navigating some of those choppy waters right now.
And so a lot of it right now is looking at what are these greater opportunities that are starting to emerge? Because the vision for Third Wave has always been as a movement, right? Looking at it as this third wave of psychedelics. What are the various aspects, businesses, products, services, ways that we can help people that are part of this cultural integration of psychedelics?
And one fun project that has been generating more momentum is, is the Microdosing Collective. [00:11:00] And that's a 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit in the state of Colorado. I started that with Ali Shaper and Josh Cappel. Ali is the co-founder and CEO of Super Mush, which is a functional mushroom brand. And Josh uh, started a legal firm called Vicente, and Josh was the campaign chair for Prop 1 22 in Colorado.
So we helped to legalize psychedelics through the Natural Medicine Health Act. And that's been a really fun project because we started to have conversations with lawmakers around how do we get microdosing legalized because as you are very familiar with, and I'm sure much of your audience is familiar with a lot of the regulatory structure around psychedelics, whether we're looking at the FDA approval pathways or in places like Colorado and Oregon are very specific to high doses therapeutic doses where there are requirements of, if you're gonna do this work, you need to have a licensed facilitator who is present with you.
They need to provide you with the medicine itself. You must be at a licensed service center to take that medicine. You must stay for at least I think three hours, [00:12:00] regardless of the dose level. And so that's great. And I think it's necessary for therapeutic doses, for very high dose work. It's important that we have those safety uh, measures in place.
But as you and I know, Lana, if you're just microdosing it, it, it's not tenable to pay $500 to take a single microdose. Right? The way that the vast majority of people are microdosing is they're getting access to these substances. They may be growing their own mushrooms or just finding it through their community, or now there are a lot of places online that just openly sell micro doses, both in Canada and the United States.
They get it to their home and they just microdose at home and they don't need to pay $500 and go into a licensed service center and go through all of this ligament role of the regulatory structure. So. There's a gap right now, right? There's a gap because 4 million people microdose with mushrooms in 2023 in the United States.
4 million people microdose with mushrooms. 99% of those people did so illegally microdosing. My bet is that it becomes sort of, [00:13:00] and continues to become one of the most popular ways to work with psychedelics because you start low, you go slow. You could sort of work your way up before jumping into the deep end.
So we have millions of people who are microdosing and it's still a schedule one illegal substance. And then none of the legal regulatory structure is there a fitting way to actually do it. And the gap that leaves is in consumer protection because there was a story that happened last year with this company called Diamond Shrooms. where they were, you probably saw this they had chocolate bars and various smoke shops and head shops and other places like that. And it turns out it wasn't just mushrooms or psilocybin mushrooms. In those chocolate bars, there were things like am there were things like PS cetin, which is synthetic psilocybin for A-C-O-D-M-T.
And so, a lot of people, when they're taking these mushroom chocolates or taking these supplements, they don't know what's actually in it. And that is a massive risk. And so I think it's really important that from a microdosing lens, we create [00:14:00] more structure so consumers are protected and people can access this legally.
The challenge of course, is, when you're talking to lawmakers, they're like, so you just want to legalize mushrooms so everyone can have access to them? And it's like, yes. And if you don't, then people will just do it illegally because at this time the DEA does not give a flying fuck. About uh, mushrooms.
They're so focused on fentanyl and cocaine and other sort of, um, drugs that I would consider to be slightly more dangerous or associated with criminal activity. And and so we really need to figure out how do we fill that gap so people can microdose and they can microdose safely and effectively
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Amazing. And how's that going,
Paul Austin: it's slow. As an entrepreneur, I like to move fast. I'm not patient. I like to see impact and results. And our focus right now is on California specific to the microdosing conversations. We had a little bit of [00:15:00] impact in Oregon. So prior to engaging with Oregon, I think you had to wait three hours after a microdose.
We've now gotten that time down to either 30 minutes or one hour, and we're trying to implement something similar in Colorado. So we've seen some small changes, but the big focus right now is on California. Because in 2023, the California legislator passed a bill to create a basically licensed service center model like Oregon and Colorado and decriminalize all psychedelics.
But Gavin Newsom rejected it 2024. They tried to pass another bill um, that did not have the decrim measure that only had the regulatory license service center, but the, it got killed in committee 'cause it was gonna cost the state of California too much money to actually implement. And so now we're looking at how do we work in a ballot initiative.
So just like how Colorado and Oregon legalized psychedelics by voting we're wondering how we could do something similar in California and ideally that ballot initiative has language that would support the use of microdosing [00:16:00] or at home use for psychedelics. And we've already seen, you know, like there's a little bit of controversy around telemedicine and ketamine, like with mind bloom and better you and joyous.
And there's a lot of companies now that are doing that. I am on the side of people, we should have optionality, we should make this more accessible. Telemedicine is the way of the future. So I do think the way it needs to get rolled out is probably similar to that, like a telemedicine model where someone will still have access to a prescribing individual, a practitioner who allows for them to get access to this.
They would have the support that they need. They're not just on their own taking mushrooms whenever and however. But I think, it's gonna be. Probably another three to five years before we see any movement on that. And I think the other downside around the microdosing stuff is like a lot of the FDA approval pathway right now whether it's LSD for generalized anxiety disorders, psilocybin for depression, MDMA for PTSD, almost all of the clinical research is focused on [00:17:00] very high dose work because the outcomes are so substantial and significant.
And so we won't even see the FDA approve like a microdosing medication, if you will, for, I think it'll be maybe four or five, six years before that happens. So in the meantime, people are just gonna have to keep getting their mushrooms from these sort of basically black market websites. And thankfully there are some trustworthy ones.
So even at Third Wave we highlight those as a curator. There definitely are some trustworthy companies, but there's a lot of unsavory ones as well, which is just
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll be tracking that closely to see how that goes. And the thing that really stands out to me about your work is that after all of these years, you seem to be just as passionate about microdosing as you were when you first discovered it. Whereas I feel like I know for myself and for a lot of people, they have this like period of obsession with microdosing and they go through it and then they kind of, uh, they're [00:18:00] like, Hey, I'm good.
I got what I needed out of it, . So, yeah. Can you speak to me a little bit about that and like what it is about microdosing that you love so much, and maybe like even what your current practice with microdosing looks like?
Paul Austin: Yeah, it's a great reflection. You're one of the first people who's reflected it in that way. So I started doing acid 15 years ago, right? I was 19 when I started to do LSD. It wasn't . Mega doses, but it definitely wasn't micro doses, right. It was probably somewhere in the one to two tab range.
And I just love LSD. Like it, I just, it's just one of these things that it just works so well for my brain and my body and my psyche and my mood that when I started microdosing it 10 years ago I take breaks. I'll go a week or two weeks, or three weeks or a month, or maybe even two months without doing it.
But I just find myself coming back to it. Like I would consistently take vitamin D 'cause I need to make sure my vitamin D levels are higher. Like I need to, I take creatine pretty often 'cause there's great clinical research on the impact of [00:19:00] creatine on brain health and mood and muscle and things like that.
So I think of micro doses as like a nice little mood stabilizer, and they help me stay centered, stay focused. My preference has continued to be with LSD. I will microdose o psilocybin every now and then, but I, there's just more discomfort. With psilocybin. One thing I've been experimenting a bit more with is San Pedro.
I do think San Pedro is like the redheaded stepchild with micro doses because so many people know about LSD and psilocybin, but St. Pedro is a little bit more um, uh, labor intensive to produce and create. But the sort of preliminary research on St. Pedro was really exciting because it has the greatest impact on inflammation out of those three.
And I think a lot of the efficacy of microdosing relates to inflammation and helping to lower chronic inflammation, both in the first in the gut, but by way of the vagus nerve and serotonin also in [00:20:00] the brain. And so I just see it as like a continual reminder of stay centered, stay present. It's great to take, I mean, I took acid yesterday.
I probably did 15 micrograms yesterday. I'm experimenting with it three times a week.= Process right now. And then I, I do, I still do high dose work here and there, but think the last time I sat with Ayahuasca was 22 months ago. I did a deta with the Shabo, and so that was a 10 day container, 10 days of silence, five ceremonies I dieted gua, which is, um, like a plant of energy and openness and heart.
But since then I haven't really done any other intense deep dive work. Yeah, I mean, I, I feel called to Iboga Ibogaine. We were talking about this before we went live as maybe a next step. But when life is pretty good and my life is decently good, now I feel centered and stable.
And, I love the work that I do and I love the home that I'm in. And I just don't feel the need to like. [00:21:00] Rock my fucking socks every, three to six months, like when it's needed, it's needed, and I can go back to it. But , my medicine more and more has been meditation.
I practice 30 minutes to an hour every day. I sat in a 10 day of Vipassana at the end of 2023. And then I usually do two, three day retreats a year. And that's been what I've been, exploring more and focused on as an active practice in this space as well.
Lana Pribic: Amazing. I feel like that's the end goal for a lot of people who engage with psychedelics, whether we know it or not, is to do enough psychedelics so that we don't have to do any more psychedelics, . Right. Um, Do you find like the microdosing practices have enhanced your meditation practice? Is that something you got into with microdosing or how does that work together?
Paul Austin: A Little bit when I did the vipasana, you know the vipasana is like no substances, [00:22:00] right? No external substances. It's silence. For 10 days, did not take any substances. I was like, this is a great invitation to honor that container. I did fast the last three days, which you're not supposed to do, but their food was just so terrible that it was like disrupting my gut and I couldn't handle it anymore.
So I just passed it the last few days. I've done a little bit of that, but honestly it's just, you know, in reflecting on this live, it's something I would be curious to explore more. Probably not. Like microdosing would be interesting with it for sure, but more so in this mini dose to me dose range. Right.
What would like 25 to 50 to 75 micrograms of LSD do to open up a space in meditation that allows you to deepen? That would be a great invitation. I would need to set aside an experimental time for that. I'm taking a week off at the end of this month, so maybe that would be a good opportunity to experiment a little bit with that.
I do wish there was more around that. Not a lot of people talk about these protocols [00:23:00] of how you could combine meditation with microdosing. But for example I do a lot of contrast therapy, which is sauna cold plunge, and I do low doses of LSD for that. And I notice I'm able to withstand the heat longer or the cold doesn't get to me as quick.
So I've definitely experimented a little bit in that way, but there's an opportunity to deepen in some of the meditation and microdosing
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah, I'm really interested in okay. I'm not suggesting that anyone listening do this Um, but I'm actually really interested in like low dose five MEO for meditation
Enhancement. I'm someone who really struggles with meditation, like it's so hard for me, and yeah, I've heard a lot about how five MEO in particular at a low dose could be useful for that,
Paul Austin: We did a great interview with Joelle Brier, who runs Ava and Rock Raza, who's Australian, but I think supports them on some of their retreats. I interviewed them maybe two years ago for our podcast about this in particular, 'cause they were doing low dose five ami with like a apa, [00:24:00] a style meditation.
Lana Pribic: Yeah, I know about that. Yeah.
Paul Austin: we have a number of our practitioners who went through our training program who do very low dose five em EO with parts, work with IFS and see how it, how, as you go deeper into five em EO and this is very low dose, right? So it's pen work, it's titrated, it's not bringing you up into this state of white light, bliss, unity consciousness.
You're sort of like activating different levels. And that's interesting. And honestly, now that we're talking about it, maybe I'll just, and I would not, I don't encourage this or recommend it, but maybe I'll just get a five MEO pen and start to experiment with that
Lana Pribic: Yes. Not encouraging this.
Don't do this. People
Paul Austin: be an interesting thing to, to experiment with.
So thank you for the idea, Lana. I
Lana Pribic: Yeah, it's something I'm wanting to bring into my life as well, and I actually just did a low dose five titrated experience, which was interesting. Yeah. It was not near the full dose, full release experience, [00:25:00] but I could definitely see the application of it to just help you kind of release some energy and release some emotions without having to think through it so much.
You know what I mean? To allow it just to like move through you somatically and give you that reset on a day-to-day level.
Paul Austin: That's why I love the sauna too, like sauna cold plunge. Like I need, and I work out lift weights maybe three, four times a week. I I'm a type of guy who, I need the sweat, I need the output, I need the movement, or else the anxiety just builds up. And so I think the reason I'm able to really sit and meditate is because I also do the really intense stuff that allows the, you know, some sort of outlet
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Amazing. And related to microdosing, like microdosing plus leadership is kind of the niche you're carving, I would say. What would you say are some of those like qualities of leadership? Those qualities that we want to embody as leaders, that microdosing [00:26:00] helps us to cultivate and unlock.
Paul Austin: Yeah. There's two that I often come back to, which both have a biological basis in the brain. One is our often talked about friend neuroplasticity. That the capacity for leaders to adapt and change and learn quickly and not hold on to old stories and not hold on to old patterns and not hold on to what was true yesterday because it's not necessarily true today or going forward.
So that capacity to be adaptive, to be I think resilient is also part of this conversation. I find that when committing to a microdosing protocol, there is an enhanced ability to shift and change on the go. And I won't go too deep into the details as to why that is, but a lot of it has to do with the five HG two A receptor.
The impact of psychedelics on serotonin in particular, but also the impact of, I think [00:27:00] LSD in, in, in particular is so helpful because it's also quite dopamine energetic. And so a lot of entrepreneurs these days are quite a DHD. And so I find that microdosing can help with maintaining that sense of focus, attention, and motivation.
So you actually have something to drive towards as you're shifting, adapting, and changing in the present moment. So neuroplasticity and as a result of that adaptability and resilience I think those are that's one key thing. And then the second thing, and this is something that hear some of the clients that I work with, talk about in a more active way, which is courage. And there's been a fair amount of research that's been published about this relationship between psychedelics and the amygdala. It's very prevalent with something like MDMA, which is why MDMA is so effective for treating PTSD because oftentimes when someone who has PTSD is attempting [00:28:00] to recall that traumatic experience, the amygdala locks up and they just can't open it up.
So the MDMA really helps to soften. The amygdala. So these things that open up a lot of fear can actually be brought to the surface and processed. And at low doses, you also see, you don't see the same level of effect as something like a high dose of MDMA or psilocybin. But you see a smaller effect and, and I think an effect that is more manageable to work with.
And so in coaching sessions, a lot of great coaching is. empowering the client that you're working with to make a leap, to take risks, to go into the unknown, to feel confident and safe in going to the, into the unknown. And I find that this low dose work, micro doses or even mini doses, low dose works when done either in a coaching session itself or part of a coaching protocol.
What clients often come back to me and say is, wow, it really helped me to be more courageous. It helped me to make more difficult [00:29:00] decisions. It helped me to do things that maybe I was afraid to do or I was procrastinating on before. I just didn't feel like I had the capacity for. And I think that ability to be more courageous is so necessary in leadership because
Yeah. Half of the battle with great leaders is having the difficult but necessary conversations or doing the difficult but necessary things. And so if you have a tool that can help facilitate that process for you, I think it's a huge win for those in leadership roles. So neuroplasticity, courage, those are definitely what I've seen is the two most common benefits that, that leaders will experience
Microdosing.
Lana Pribic: Courage is such a good one that the connection you made to the amygdala, that's really good. And leaders, especially entrepreneurs and business owners, we have to take so many risks all the time. Like financial risks are just the start of it. But also it takes a lot of vulnerability to put yourself out there in different ways.
So, yeah. And also, [00:30:00] you know, as leaders we have to be very creative, right? And we really have to stay connected to the energy of creativity and keep that flow going. And I find microdosing is something that we can really lean on to do that. Can you talk a little bit about um, that connection between creativity and microdosing and whatever creativity means to you?
It doesn't, we're not talking about art necessarily, just being creative, problem
Paul Austin: cre, create creativity is in some ways a skill that you can learn and cultivate. And just like psychedelics, it's more of a meta skill because as we become more creative we can learn to adapt and problem solve in a better way. And so I, it's it, I would say . If neuroplasticity and courage are two pillars, creativity is probably connected into neuroplasticity, right?
It's like when the brain becomes more plastic, when the brain becomes more malleable, then you as well become more malleable. You become more open, you become more willing to take [00:31:00] chances. And so maybe it's, even as I'm talking about this out loud, it's like creativity is the middle point between neuroplasticity and courage, right?
Because often to be creative takes courage and it takes the willingness to, to learn and adapt and try some new things. I, and with microdosing or with low dosing, this is a lot of what we talk about in our training program as well for practitioners. It's if you're gonna work with or support a client through a process that is more create creative focus, what is the appropriate dose level for that?
Because a true microdose, meaning sub perceptual. So let's say five to 10 micrograms of LSD. I find that as a better job of helping someone to focus and focus is a little bit of a different skill than creativity. Another way to look at it is convergent thinking. The ability to get things done and e execute is a little bit different than divergent thinking, which is taking a step back and asking how are these beliefs or [00:32:00] principles or ideas, how are they related?
How can I see new connections in ways that I didn't see them before? And so I often find this mini dose or museum dose when done on a walk or in nature or as part of a brainstorming session, is actually much more accretive to the creative process because you're, to be creative, you have to be able to step back.
To get out of the weeds, to look at things from a new lens and a new perspective. And so I find this low dose work does a really good job of that. I high doses, we're talking 3, 4, 5 grams of mushrooms are a little too high because you're not really able to be quote unquote creative or you can't really apply creativity so much.
Instead you can, new ideas, new thoughts, new insights move through you, but you're a little bit too disoriented to know actually what to do with them, which is why we have integration, because a lot of integration is then whittling down those insights into the applied change for everyday life.
[00:33:00] So creativity is somewhere in that. In that sweet spot. It's a skill we can cultivate. And I find so much of what makes for a great creative is someone who is willing to fail, willing to try, willing to experiment, willing to do a lot of things, understanding that if they take 10 shots and just one of them succeeds, then that is often what the creative lens is.
It's, you can't be perfect. Creativity has to be messy. I find it's like with writing, you have a shitty first draft, right? You're always looking at, okay, how do I just get my thoughts down? And then the editing process is the refinement process. The focus process. But the creative process is just how can I be messy and vulnerable and get things out,
Lana Pribic: yeah, and you're speaking of books. You're writing a new book I heard on a recent podcast.
Paul Austin: Yes, I wrote a new book. I am, I'm working on, I would say now it's like the editing process.
Lana Pribic: Okay.
Paul Austin: and it's really exploring the topic of exploration [00:34:00] and how psychedelics facilitate the skill of exploration. So like a lot of my work prior, it's not as, it's not really focused on how are psychedelics helpful for PTSD depression addiction.
There's been a million books that have been written on that is nothing new. I'm really looking at how can we utilize psychedelics as a skill to become more aware, to become better regulated. Have a uh, a better regulated nervous system to find our true motivation um, to better relate to others.
To be more resilient and adaptable in the face of challenge. And so a lot of the book is then talking about how the skill of exploration or the skill of willing to take risks to explore what I call liminality or the liminal space. That skill can be engendered by intentional psychedelic work. That, that when we work with psychedelics in a skillful way, it opens up these new vistas of thoughts, ideas, opportunities.
It helps us to break through [00:35:00] ruts, creative ruts or relational ruts or business ruts. And so the focus of the book is if someone is interested in psychedelics, but they don't identify as having a clinical diagnosis that they think could, they could benefit from, this is like a roadmap and a reference guide to how they could still get the sort of most out of it and how it can be a much more creative orientation because that's a lot of what I focus on.
Healing work is important. it's so important. These are incredible tools for mental health, but healing is just getting it your glass half full. Right? What I've always been curious about is how do we get that glass from half full to fully full? And what can psychedelics do to help us to step into that sort of most powerful, capable, creative version of ourselves?
Lana Pribic: . Yeah, I definitely agree with you with that. As in that is the, I feel like the audience that I serve as well, and hence both of our focus is on coaching and the process of coaching. 'cause yeah, I feel like therapy, yeah. Gets your glass half full and then coaching is [00:36:00] the thing that will help you get it full
Paul Austin: And I think just to speak to some of the challenge and difficulty in holding this frame in the psychedelic space, because the therapeutic lens has been so predominant,
Lana Pribic: Yeah.
Paul Austin: we live in a very sort of therapeutic size world now where everything has to be about therapy or everything has to be about healing and. I'm just frank and direct, I think it's boring. And I think it misses so much of the beauty and so much of the profundity and so much of the potential of these medicines and substances that absolutely, like if you look at the indigenous use of ayahuasca as an example, right? It has been used mostly by the shamans.
The eros. They drink the ayahuasca to be able to heal, right? Because they are the shamans, they are these doctors of these indigenous societies. But what's not often talked about is the fact that they also use ayahuasca to hunt and they will drink ayahuasca before a night hunt because it gives them better vision [00:37:00] so they can hunt at night.
In the Amazon, people don't talk about that in the West. They just talk about . The healing of it or peyote as well. Peyote will hear a lot about, the Rodman circles and that peyote was used as a way to heal, especially from the harms of colonialism and alcohol. And, like all of that trauma, which is true and necessary.
And they don't talk about how the Tarara Humara, which are an an indigenous peoples in the north of Mexico who were cataloged and born to Run, which is a really great book about barefoot running, how they use peyote so they could run these ultra marathons through these high desert hills of Mexico.
So I think that lens as well on these are not just tools for healing. They help with the soul sickness, but they're also these tools that can help us to explore the outer reaches of what it means to be human. That to me is just it's exciting, it's dynamic. It's why I've still been so interested in microdosing after all these years because.
It's an onion that never stops peeling. And [00:38:00] that is a much more exciting onion to keep peeling than this trauma happened to me, or this is my relationship with my parents, or this is my relationship to my grandparents, or this is my relationship to my ancestral lineage. I find the naval gazing be a little too much at times.
And sometimes folks just need a kick in the ass and go, what are we gonna create? What's the vision from here? Like, how do we get excited about what we want to bring into the world rather than, what do we need to heal from? Or what's happened to us?
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yes. I think this is where you and I definitely connect in our work, and it's very exciting. Yeah. I mean, Ayahuasca used in hunts also. Iboga has been microdosed historically for hunts. kanna as well has been used for those purposes. These medicines are often also used to celebrate life and to bring the community together and to go through processes of initiation too.
So, yeah. it's a way that we kind of bring these medicines into our western perspective and make it [00:39:00] fit into our western perspective in an almost like strip away everything else that doesn't fit into that therapeutic model.
Paul Austin: I think like the word that often comes up for me is industrialization. We have an industrial model, right? We have a very reductionist model. It has to be contained, it has to be focused. We have to reduce variables, we have to reduce complexity,
Lana Pribic: to study it in our scientific model.
Paul Austin: like the machine era, right?
And look, I think it's so awesome that these. Alkaloids may get approved by the FDA psilocybin, but also drugs like LSD and MDMA may get approved by the FDA to treat these conditions. That's amazing. And to provide balance. This is why I've always looked at psychedelics from a historical context and lens.
This is why I've always amplified, even the spiritual traditions of Greece and Rome and, the ancient Vedics and the ancient Incans as well. Use San Pedro in this way to create coherence and vitality [00:40:00] in the leaders really. And I think that's just as helpful and necessary as providing medicine to everyone else.
, it needs to be a both and it can't be an either or. And I think sometimes in the psychedelic space, there's too much of an emphasis on well, we just need to make this available for those who are suffering most. I think absolutely we do, and we need to make this available in structured ways for those who are building the systems of tomorrow, because we want those systems of tomorrow to be influenced by the intelligence that is inherent in some of these ancient medicines.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Beautifully said. Yeah. And I imagine in the process of writing this book, and I mean you, . Create a lot of things, , if you're a very creative person. What's your creative routine like? I guess like creative hygiene is a word that's coming to me right now. Like, What's that look like for you? I imagine microdosing as a part of it, but Yeah.
What, What is the life of Paul as a creative person who is always making you things? And one of the things [00:41:00] I really love about listening to your interviews is how yeah. You have a way of pulling different things together really powerfully, and that is a process of creativity. So, yes. Can you tell us a little bit about like, what are those routines?
How are you working with microdosing? How are you keeping those creative juices flowing?
Paul Austin: The reflection is interesting to hear because, I feel like I am in this moment a little stagnant as a creator. Like There are sometimes these plateaus or ceilings that one hits. And partly that's because I'm getting caught in the weeds or stuck in the minutia of things. So there I do have to be intentional about setting aside time.
One of the things that I've been doing more and more is just saying no. I find that's one of the most powerful things we can do. So no to exploratory calls. No to calls, that could just be done by email, no to um, you know, other ideas or ventures that I just [00:42:00] don't think are aligned necessarily with the vision of what I want to bring forward.
So I think saying no has been a practice for me, and it's a practice that I'm getting better and better at, but that . Protects the space, the time that I need to not do much, because I think what is so key to creativity is the capacity to rest, to not be online um, to be off a phone or a screen, and to just sit there and think and ideate and reflect.
So one thing I always try to do is set aside an hour each morning where it's just an hour to journal, to write, to think through ideas and thoughts. That's one way. I'm also I'm, I'm the type of person who I love to be engaged in conversation with a, like a thought partner, like a sparring partner.
And that'll might be my business partner. It could be an advisor. Usually the people who are also my friends are also advisors or folks that I collaborate or work with. So I love just talking through ideas [00:43:00] and, and coming up with them and, yeah, so saying no, I think protecting one's time and energy is important.
Setting aside intentional time in the morning to be able to dive in to different things. And then having conversations with people who are also creative where we can bounce ideas back and and forth. And part of my work, even over the last 10 years has been, I do, like my creative vision really looks outwards.
I'm always thinking about the future. And so part of what I've been focusing is how do I turn more of that energy inwards? So instead of just constantly coming up with new things, there's a sort of process of stacking so that these creative ideas actually build on one another. Because what I've learned is I don't have the same level of energy that I did 10 years ago necessarily.
So I also need to find be that synthesizer is what you were saying, right? So how do I synthesize these ideas? Often because I read a lot, I'll read, I read at least a half hour every day. I try to read [00:44:00] on weekends, maybe an hour. So a lot of the ideas that I get are from, you know, I, I, I have sort of a broad uh, range of, of what I read.
So I think reading is also like my input for creative ideas. But yeah, that capacity to synthesize that capacity, to stack that capacity to stay focused on the larger vision, but also be willing to take some of these side tangents and side roads, because that's where some of the most, creative gold comes from.
That's, that would be a little bit of the context. That's a good question. Yeah. Thank you for that question.
Lana Pribic: . I actually wanna dig a little deeper into it, if that's okay with you, . Um, When you're doing the journaling, you're literally putting pen to paper kind of thing, or, yeah.
Paul Austin: this, I'll show you like I.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you have one kind of notebook and you're just jotting things down as they come up. 'cause I have a friend, listeners will be familiar with him 'cause he is been on before and co-hosted Kev. He's very creative and he literally carries a notebook around with him in his pocket and [00:45:00] like writes things down.
So there's something about the physical act of just like allowing it to be messy.
Paul Austin: totally. And if I was a better creator, I think I would do the same. And I'm just gonna make a note for myself. 'cause there's these great things called the field notes guides that fit perfectly in your pocket that I've had before. And I think that's something where it's like I love to go out.
to a cafe, to a restaurant, just out and not bring my phone and just have a little notebook or something like that. And then as you're undistracted, things start to filter through and come through and be able to jot those down and have that ability. Um, and then the way that microdosing fits into that, 'cause I know that was also part of your question, is it just, it amps it up a little bit.
You just, you're when you take a microdose, there's just the it's like lubricant for creative juices. So it just gets it lubricates things a little bit more. It's a little bit easier to start to come up in the creative process. It's a little bit easier to dive in because part of the creative process, a big part of it is just starting and just starting to write things down, or [00:46:00] just starting the artwork or just starting whatever it is.
So I find microdosing just really helps with that lubrication and then will help you to stay, I find, help me to stay deeper in flow for longer if I set up the right container for it.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I would agree. And I would also add uh, cannabis to the mix there where cannabis for me, helps me really get into that creative synthesizing things zone so much so that I feel like it's actually become a bit of a crutch for me. But is is it part of
Paul Austin: with it.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. And, And it's, yeah.
Paul Austin: your social media,
Lana Pribic: yeah.
Paul Austin: uh,
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Is Is it part of your practice as well?
Paul Austin: it has been, but I got so addicted to it. I was smoking it almost every day for five years. That two years ago, I just had to be like, okay, I gotta stop. So I stopped. But then I've had some restarts. I got back into it. I got off again. I got back into it. I've now been off of it for the most part, for eight or nine months.[00:47:00]
Lana Pribic: Okay. Well,
Paul Austin: I smoked over New Year's a little bit, like twice, two or three times. But I haven't gotten back into it because. My thing with drugs like cannabis, I've also gotten into it with Kratom kava. And Creto is a really interesting mix. I have a really hard time with moderation, so if I get into something, I'll do a lot of it.
And so if I start smoking, like if I, like if after this call I was like, I'm gonna go get a joint, I'm gonna roll spliff. 'cause pls are my favorite, they're like the fucking best. Uh, That's like the vice. Um, But if I smoke one, then I'm like, this feels nice. This is the next day.
I'll be like, I want to feel that way again and I'll smoke another. And then before you know it, I've smoked weed every day for two weeks and then my mood is off and I'm depressed and I have a hard time focusing and, I'm hard on myself. So I've just decided the occasional, maybe once every four or five months is fine.
But outside of that, just better to not have it,
Lana Pribic: okay, cool. I [00:48:00] am foreseeing my future as you're sharing that. Okay. One more question I have for you before we get into the coaching program. 'cause I, I am actually really excited to hear about the developments in that the like new kid on the micro dosing block. kanna yeah. You guys have some cool resources on your website, but I'm really curious while I have you here to hear about what you, how your community has been working with kanna, what your thoughts are because it's not really a microdose but it almost acts like a microdose as the regular dose of kanna acts like a microdose.
So yeah, just curious to hear some of your thoughts 'cause we're hearing a lot more of it and as people know, I also just started bringing kanna to Canada. So yeah, tell us a little bit about it.
Paul Austin: Well, it's a it's a heart opener. I think a lot of people are looking at it potentially instead of SSRIs because it'll, it's also a mood stabilizer. It's subtle enough that it's not like smoking weed or drinking this kava kratom or [00:49:00] taking LSD. So it's subtle enough that I don't find any sort of attachment or hook around it.
So I can do it a little bit and I'll just notice my mood is getting a bit better and, I feel a little lighter and a little bit more energized and focused. There's various ways that you can get it through gummies, through tincture. You can take the powder itself. There's someone who's even created a vape pen with kanna, which I love.
I think it's the best. I've tried it more than a handful of times. So I would say I use it here and there. I know a lot of people who create micro doses with it, with psilocybin, so they'll have a psilocybin kanna mix and the kanna will be a nice little extra heart opener boost for those who are very sensitive to medicine, kanna can be a little bit more intense.
It can be a real big heart opener. I'm like, average. I'm not overly blocked, but I'm not super, super sensitive. So I definitely notice it. But and it's something I've worked with a little bit and it's something we, we talk about on our website, we have a guide to kanna and we've amplified some products that way because it's fully legal and people enjoy it, [00:50:00] it seems to be helping them,
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. It's, yeah. New kid on the block. It's cool to see people getting introduced to it and Lovely that it's a legal option. Um, So tell us about the, 'cause the name of the coaching program has changed, right? It
Paul Austin: Yeah. I, I, I brought it out from under third Wave, so now it's the Psychedelic Coaching Institute, like it has its own name and brand.
Lana Pribic: Oh, okay. So it's no, no longer under Third wave.
Paul Austin: It's all fully new entity and
Lana Pribic: Cool.
Paul Austin: because Third Wave is much more a media brand. And so
Lana Pribic: Mm-hmm
Paul Austin: From a way of keeping our books clean and keeping things organized, it's now like a sister brand to
Lana Pribic: Yeah. So how many cohorts have you guys brought through
Paul Austin: We are enrolling now for our 10th cohort,
Lana Pribic: Wow.
Paul Austin: which is fun. I love these cohorts. It's an interesting mix of, we have some, it's very established coaches who come in, right, who have been coaching for 15, 20, 25 years and they've heard about psychedelics and they wanna weave it into to [00:51:00] their practice.
So that's one demographic that comes in. We also have another demographic of folks who are coaches, they've gone through a training or a certification, but they're still pretty new on their path. They've coached maybe for a year or two years or three years, and they want to be on the cutting edge.
And so they're looking to incorporate psychedelics into their practice. And then we have quite a few people who are more like in career transition, and they've had a meaningful experience with psychedelics and they see our training program, and they're looking at it as like a career leap or career transition.
And so what we tell folks is it's really heavy on the psychedelic. We've added in more and more things specific to coaching fundamentals, because we've noticed a lot of people need those coaching fundamentals for them to feel confident to go out into the world to do it. But it's not a certification program for the skill of coaching itself.
We're really, you know, we want it to be as focused on psychedelics as possible. And then. We're recording this mid-March. We have some kind of shifts [00:52:00] and changes that are coming down the road. We're gonna roll out, like we've only had this one main course really, which is a 10 month certification program that includes the intensive in Costa Rica.
And we're gonna roll out a new course that's more of like an intro course that covers more of the coaching fundamentals, the business fundamentals, and microdosing in particular. And so we're excited to roll that out. But I would say the, usually people notice the biggest, there's two big benefits, confidence and community is what I found.
They get the knowledge, the information, the know-how to be able to do this work in a way that feels safe and ethical.
We really emphasize this is not a training program if you want to guide people through high doses of psychedelics. This is a training program that focuses on the preparation and the integration.
And we cover microdosing and we talk about these fundamentals of facilitation, but we are not training you to be a high dose guide. I truly believe that a cohort style training program is not ideal [00:53:00] to train guides in a really skillful way. I do think there needs to be a considerable amount of energy and time put into mentorship and apprenticeship
If someone wants to be a guide for high doses.
So confidence is the one in the community. We've now had 300 people who go through and the community of people who have joined. It's just a really beautiful, um, intelligent devoted group of humans. And so that's also been a really fun that you have now, we have now a lot of great people all over the states and even all over the world who are working with these medicines, some underground, some above ground.
And it's been fun to see how the community continues just to grow and evolve and do this work in a really beautiful way.
Lana Pribic: Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. 'cause I think that's what people are really craving as they come into the psychedelic space is Yeah. That kind of leap into a next career. I work with a lot of clients who are looking for that. But then also, yeah, that community piece is something that's missing for a lot of people.
So, if we can bring people together in a way [00:54:00] that allows them to build confidence and skills and training, but also introduces them to, to people that's, that's a huge win. Um, Are there like specific frameworks or methodologies that you're using that you've developed or that you're leaning on that you can share a little bit about?
Paul Austin: So we have it split into three main sections, three main containers is what I call them, theory intensive and practicum. So the first three months is theory. I. And the intention of the theoretical section is to give people a sense of the water that they're swimming in, right? This is the context of the third wave of psychedelics.
This is some of the scientific research that we have in these compounds. These are the safety and ethical frameworks that we must be mindful of. These are some of the intentions that people have in coming in and how we support them in integration. This is the legal landscape. What is legal, what is not legal?
So the first three months is really giving them a sense of, [00:55:00] okay, this is the context that I exist within, emphasizing both the indigenous and ancient use of psychedelics, but also the cutting edge sort of science and modern use of psychedelics, right? How do we hold both of those as part of the larger ocean that we're swimming in?
We then bring people to the six day intensive. We've structured that intentionally to be, you could say, a buildup or even a deepening um, where we do a hiker dose, like a low dose. Meditative nature walk experience, temezacal high dose ceremony, and then a day for integration. And then we have like an arrival day in a, in a kind of, leaving day.
So it's a six day intensive in total for the experience. And that really emphasizes the importance of walking the walk, that as practitioners and facilitators, we must go through our own transformational process. Ideally, in a group, I find the one-to-one work to be important, but there's a lot that we learn when we're going through this process in a group that would not otherwise show up in [00:56:00] one-to-one work.
This person is triggering to me, or, this person reminds me of my parents. Or, there's just so much more work that gets to be done because psychedelics and life itself is about how we relate. And so being able to learn that skill of relationship in a safe container with psychedelics woven in is a huge part of it.
Then the most, the majority of the program from a time perspective is focused on the practicum. And so we cover what we call the five key elements, assessment, preparation, facilitation, integration, and microdosing. We spend about a month on each of those skills and we provide workshops and lectures and give students an active chance to practice this hands-on in a laboratory environment with mentorship before they go out into the world and actually start to work with clients in this way.
And so I think if a facilitator knows how to assess, prepare, knows the fundamentals of facilitation, knows how to support folks through integration in the role of microdosing in that process, they at least have the foundational knowledge not to be [00:57:00] dangerous.
Lana Pribic: Okay.
Paul Austin: Right. And I think that's really what we're going for.
It's like we're not, the training is not for someone who wants to be the best of the best, I would say. There are much more intentional trainings, I would even say mentorship or apprenticeship path. If you want to be the best. The best from a guide perspective. Great. But if you just want to be really effective from a coaching perspective, and most importantly know that what you're doing, you're reducing harm, you're helping to create safety.
You're ideally also helping to make these results for clients much more effective, which many of our facilitators do. That's the end goal, right? Is how do we get all of these people to a certain level where they can go out into the world and really be supportive of someone's path as they're moving through it.
Lana Pribic: Okay. So it sounds like a training that supports all types of practitioners, coaches, people who wanna be guides, or is it specifically aimed at coaches,
Paul Austin: Our framing is on coaching. I would say most of the people who come in are looking at this as a version [00:58:00] of coaching. I would say the paradox or the irony or the challenge is that there's also, with psychedelic work, there's a lot of mentorship. There is a lot of teaching for some clients 'cause they really don't know anything about psychedelics, right?
So that teaching and mentorship angle is also important. There's usually some level of advising as part of it as well. So we teach some of these fundamentals of coaching about what psychedelics may open up on that coaching path. But there also may be these other skills that we need to bring into the container.
And we have a lot of folks who come in from a coaching background, but we do have body workers, we have nurses, we have energy workers, we have other folks who are in career transition who are still trying to figure out what they want to do. And so a lot of this is the foundational fundamentals to make sure these folks can go out and support others.
I would say it's really ideal for like people who are beginner to intermediate. This is not a training for folks who are like already quite advanced and want to deepen in that. I think a great training for that is this one. I. It's [00:59:00] also controversial, so do your own research and diligence, but it's called the Static Mysticism.
Lana Pribic: Mm-hmm
Paul Austin: You seen this training?
Lana Pribic: Mm-hmm.
Paul Austin: Uh, You should,
Lana Pribic: Ecstatic mysticism.
Paul Austin: Yeah. It used to be called Awe, a WE.
Lana Pribic: Okay.
Paul Austin: It's a three. You, this would be like up your alley for sure. It's a three year program. It includes six peak experiences and like most of the faculty are indigenous elders and teachers.
Lana Pribic: Wow. Oh my gosh. I can't imagine signing up for six peak experiences.
Paul Austin: Burning man, iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, dark room. There
Lana Pribic: wow,
Paul Austin: around
Lana Pribic: burning Man is part of the curriculum.
Paul Austin: It's one of the, it's one of them that you can choose. Right. You have various options that you can choose for that experience. Yeah.
Lana Pribic: Very cool. Very cool.
Paul Austin: Yeah. It's
Lana Pribic: I'm gonna have to look into that. I actually have this question on my mind since we started recording. The skill of psychedelics,
Paul Austin: Yeah,
Lana Pribic: the skill of psychedelics. 'cause that's what this whole program is built upon. [01:00:00] What is the skill of psychedelics? Why are we viewing it as a skill?
How do we develop it?
Paul Austin: so the skill is a more masculine frame, right? It is this sense of something we can cultivate and develop. It goes back to what we were talking about before where most of the emphasis has been on the feminine and the healing side, and so really what we're bringing people into is how can this be, how can you be in relationship with an ally, an intelligence, and work with it skillfully in a way that helps to create at the core, right?
Helps to manifest, helps to bring things into reality. Fundamentally, the way that I would look at that, the way that I teach it, the way that we teach it in the training program is a lot of the skill of psychedelics is what's the appropriate dosage, what's the appropriate medicine, and what's the appropriate frequency?
Right. And then what are the supporting modalities that help the individual to integrate those lens, those insights, those profound ways of knowing into their body, into their psyche, into their being. And so what I found is as we become more [01:01:00] skillful at working with psychedelics, there is a capacity to bring more into reality, to manifest more, to, to because we have, we're more productive or we can spend more time in flow.
We're more clear or more aligned in terms of what we want to, bring through. We are able to better do clean out the garbage disposal, if you will, do the necessary shadow work and get out of our own way in a much easier way. So the skill of psychedelics is how we work with these medicines and these allies, or how we support clients in working with these medicine and these allies.
So it's safe, it's effective, it's useful. And there's various analogies that we use within that. One of them is the lotus flour. Analogy. Are you familiar with the lotus flower analogy, Lana?
Lana Pribic: No, but I can imagine what it might be. Go ahead, share it.
Paul Austin: So the lotus flower is like the symbol of enlightenment in Buddhism, and it is, it grows outta mud, right? The lotus flower grows outta mud. So first we must make sure that the mud or the soil is clean and [01:02:00] it's healthy. So that's the shadow work, right? Tilling the soil is the shadow work, and usually the best medicines for that are MDMA ketamine or maybe low doses of psilocybin, right?
So first we have to till the soil, do the shadow work. Once we have soil that's healthy, then we plant that new seed and planting that new seed is planting that new seed of self ego dissolution, right? So high doses of psilocybin, high doses of LSD. You could also make the case in the argument for high doses of ketamine are a great way to plant that new seed of self.
Then once that new seed has been planted, then you must water. That seed. You must give it sunlight. You must give it nutrients. That's the integration process. So to continue to help that that lotus flower grow. Then once it's ready to grow and open up, that's when substances like ayahuasca, iboga five, AMI help for that full flour, that full opening towards enlightenment.
Lana Pribic: Wow.
Paul Austin: Because if you go right for the enlightenment, as [01:03:00] you've experienced, not personally maybe, but maybe with clients or as you've heard stories, that if you go right for enlightenment and get blown out, it's very destabilizing. So you need that new foundation of self until you get into this very high dose work that allows you to really open up into this enlightened sense of self.
So that's one analogy we use.
Lana Pribic: I would actually toss Iboga into that first phase of doing the shadow work. 'cause it, it can get pretty shadowy with iboga. 'cause it really takes you to the root into yourself.
Paul Austin: And I'm glad you brought that up, right, because that is part of the skill of psychedelics then, because depending on the client that you're working with, I would say that should totally be the case. If someone has a TBI, or if someone is maybe has an addiction problem assuming they have a good heart, right, then iboga might be a really good first step for them because it's going to address some of those core things.
But whereas if someone has PTSD, I might say, actually MDMA might be a better option. Or maybe they have a, they have a really difficult relationship with their spouse or partner and that's their intention in [01:04:00] coming to psychedelic medicine. So we might say, okay, maybe start with MDMA then as that path and process as well.
So, yeah that
Lana Pribic: I feel like Iboga is so full spectrum that I feel like it could be of assistance in all the phases. Have you ever heard the analogy by Tricia Eastman, that Iboga is like the root of the tree and five MEO is the star at the top? Have you ever Yeah,
Paul Austin: That's a great one. I had her on the podcast. Trisha's a friend. I'll have to, does she talk about this somewhere or is it in
Lana Pribic: she talked about it on a podcast. Maybe it was your podcast back in the day. Maybe it was psychedelics today, but it was an interview with her and her partner and yeah, they talk about that. And it was after my Ebo experience that I was like, Ooh, five, MEO, what's the star at the top? But that reminded me of your Lotus analogy.
Paul Austin: Well and I'm glad you brought that up because Martine Polanco, who's a good friend of mine here in San Diego, medical doctor, he is been doing work with Ivy Game for 20 years. He works now with a lot of Navy Seals and XNFL players and he does that combination. He does Ivy game with five
Lana Pribic: Yes. [01:05:00] Yes. Yeah. And there's a lot to be said about that too, about like the, I, yeah. Steve Rio is a good person to to tune into about that, that combo. I think him and I both are of the belief that it's good to space it out to give some space for Iboga, but, they seem to be creating some good results over there at,
Paul Austin: Totally. And I think the trade off to that is I've also had friends who have only done iboga or only done iboga, and they become really dark and suicidal for some
Lana Pribic: wow. Yeah.
Paul Austin: Think that's why they implemented the five MEO at the end because they noticed that a lot of people who were only doing iboga or iboga were like stuck in a dark place and couldn't
Lana Pribic: I wonder how much of that is also I like how much of that could be helped through prep. And like doing some of that shadow work before, maybe it's it's just too much when it comes on during the medicine. But yeah. Okay. We could jam for days, obviously.
I was listening to your interview on psychedelics today and you had this awesome quote that I pulled, and then my last question [01:06:00] before I let you go and get back to your day. Okay. You said life is malleable. I can make of it what I want. I just have to be clear about what I want. And if I'm clear about what I want, then I think I have the capacity to bring that into existence.
Love that. So off of that, I wanna know what you're wanting to create for yourself and for third wave, what are you calling in? What are you wanting to create?
Paul Austin: It is a very high level. I would love to be part of a creation which allows any adult who wishes to use psychedelics to use them in a way that's safe. Legal and effective. So that is the big vision of Third Wave, is how do we create a cultural framework for the safe, legal, and effective use of psychedelics.
Right? That's really what I want to move through. I think that's number one. I think, number two is I would really love to be a supporting force and helping business to become more sacred. [01:07:00] I think that's another big aspect that I think business for good reason, has this reputation of profanity, of destruction, of extraction that, it's a force for evil, not necessarily good.
And I also believe that business is the greatest force that we have alive to us in this day and age. And so I would love to play a role in helping leaders to become more conscious, to become more aware, to focus more on regenerative outcomes, to focus more on how we create harmony. So I think on a very personal level, I'm really motivated and inspired by that.
And then think even beyond psychedelics, right? And leadership the larger vision of where I see those two converging legal psychedelics and more conscious leaders is I'd love a world in which we live in greater harmony with our natural environment, right? Where we're not, we don't feel as if it's such a.
Us versus them mentality that we're able to find a greater place of integration and harmony and that we can, [01:08:00] in a way, remember or retrieve how it is that we've lived as humans for thousands of years, which is not in concrete boxes necessarily. Right? In concrete cities, in concrete walls, in places that are, um, very right?
There's this machine-like quality to our language, our words, I'm gonna download things, my hardware, my software, right? All of the language and words that we use. Yeah. My program, right? It's like we're very techie and I love my, my, my greater sort of vision or hope is that we can be de-industrialized as a culture and community and come back to our true roots as human beings.
That we allow AI and artificial intelligence to really . Handle that side of life so we can you know, find our more, primitive isn't the right word, our more wild side once again as human beings. And that's what I'm really driven and motivated by in my own work first because everything I think starts [01:09:00] with my own work.
But it's what I'd love to bring more and more to the world at large as well. The rewilding, I think that's the buzz word for it.
Lana Pribic: The Call of the Wild. Yeah.
Paul Austin: call of the wild.
Lana Pribic: Amazing. Oh, well this was so fun. Thanks for dropping in. When does the next cohort start of the practitioner certification program?
Paul Austin: We have cohorts that start every few months, so I would encourage folks to go to the third wave.co. If you want to go directly to the website, it's Psychedelic Coaching Institute, but that's a little bit more to remember. So that third wave.co or just type in third wave psychedelics. The third wave microdosing.
And we have, I. On Third Wave, we have our guides, we have our podcast, but we also have details on that practitioner training program. So I'd encourage folks to go check that out. And and then if folks wanna follow me on social, I'm on Instagram and Twitter or XI guess it's what it's now called, as well as LinkedIn.
I'm pretty active on, on those three platforms, so I'd encourage anyone who's listening to this to say, hi, send me a note and if there's anything that we or I can support you on just let us know.[01:10:00]
Lana Pribic: Amazing. Yeah, we will have all those, all those links that you mentioned in the show notes for ease of access for people. Amazing. Well, yeah, thank you again so much. And any last words for the people?
No pressure
Paul Austin: I Just love acid. I think that's what I'll end with. LSD is my favorite. I think it always will be my favorite. And I think it's still unfortunately quite stigmatized because people dunno how to work with it in a super skillful way. But it's so. Pure. Like it's just this pure crystal of love.
That's the energy that I get from it. And it's just my favorite. So that's all end.
Lana Pribic: I love that. That's your last word. Well, bicycle days coming up. Do you have any plans to celebrate? I'm
Paul Austin: speaking at an event, but
Lana Pribic: Oh, okay.
Paul Austin: it's not really psychedelic or bicycle day related. It's an Austin. But I love bicycle day. I've participated a few times and it's always a blast.
Lana Pribic: Okay. Amazing. Yeah. I think my friends and I are gonna do the bike ride on acid thing this year.
Paul Austin: There you go. Love it.
Lana Pribic: So fun. [01:11:00] Amazing. Well, thanks for listening, everyone, and check out all the links down below.
Paul Austin: Thank you Lana.
